Salary to consider private

[Duckyneedsaclean]

Just wondering at what take home salary you would consider/be able to pay for a private school place?

We were hoping for a bursary but not been granted one - trying to figure out if we can afford full fees.

@user1477391263 there are 2 state schools near us which have a % of selected pupils. One reserves 10% of places for out of catchment kids based on academic ability and another reserves places for out of area kids based on sporting ability. I’m sure there are others.

it is about middle class parents who tutor their kids a lot or pay for private prep schools.)

plenty pay for prep & still tutor for those grammar & selective places!

Interesting, I was not aware of that. Although of course most comprehensive schools do sets/streams which are usually decided based on some test or other.

For what it's worth, I too would totally tutor or use a prep school to prepare for the 11 plus if I was forced to live in an 11 plus area (as it was, I tutored for a private secondary school as we live overseas and needed bilingual education); I just think that if that is the idea, parents should say so honestly, and not pretend that the reason they are using the prep is because of the nurturing little classes or pastoral care or marvellous music facilities or whatever.

There is another thread in Primary Education right now about prep schools in some areas experiencing falling intakes; I think that if things continue with rising fees and the cost of living crisis, prep schools might increasingly start to be things that are increasingly concentrated in 11-plus areas, for this pragmatic reason. But let's see.

The irony is that you sometimes hear people saying that "the 11 plus system is better as grammar schools are free and it will reduce the demand for private schools." My hunch is that it does the opposite; you get parents wanting prep schools to prepare for the 11 plus, and you also get more demand for private secondaries to cater for middle class kids who didn't pass, because most aspirational parents understandably feel nervous about their kids attending the "other" school in an 11 plus area...

@user1477391263 you sometimes hear people saying that "the 11 plus system is better as grammar schools are free and it will reduce the demand for private schools." My hunch is that it does the opposite; you get parents wanting prep schools to prepare for the 11 plus, and you also get more demand for private secondaries to cater for middle class kids who didn't pass, because most aspirational parents understandably feel nervous about their kids attending the "other" school in an 11 plus area...

absolutely true. Grammar Schools can't exist in isolation. for every school that takes only the hard working, aspirational, bright and successful there's another school, or several schools, with a below-average intake of such star pupils. those schools are unpleasant for everyone. There's an increased demand then for decent not-too-expensive nonselective private schools that wealthier parents can send their nice-but-dim kids to if they didn't make the grade for grammar, and the "everyone else" school gets even worse. They keep changing the terminology for what such schools are called but the change if vocabulary doesn't make them into a nice school.

what might make them successful would be a massive increase in funding for the non-grammars. if the advantage of not going to grammar school meant much smaller class sizes for everyone (say max 18) and much higher investment in resources for more vocational subjects (top of the line equipment in technical and creative) whereas the grammar schools have classes of 30 and much more focus on less hands-on subjects so less equipment etc, then the grammar schools aren't necessarily "better" just differently focussed.

but it's still flawed because categorising kids at age 11 will always be flawed.

I'm in London and there are many non grammars state schools that have selective streams
@duoplik what do you mean by non grammar selective state schools?

Do you mean by "selective" catholic schools that require catholic certificate?
I am unaware of any state schools that are not grammar that are selective. The rest is all based on catchment area. The selection is based on where you live if they are oversubscribed but " selective" would be a wrong word to use.
Exams ( selective) are only to grammar and independent schools
^^

There are state schools that are partially selective @ReneeX

They reserve about 10 percent or so of places for scholars in music, sport, and or academics. Kingsdale is a good example but there are many at least in London

Really interesting thread, was looking for my little boy who is 5 and ‘private high school’ begins in Y3. Our spending is quite low and I thought we could stretch it and afford it. By the sounds of this thread…it does sound tight!

the real question I have for those who have come out the other end of having had their children go through private school, what experiences did they have that they would not have had in state school? What grades did they achieve and what did they go on to do? My view is bright children will thrive regardless of where they go..it’s thr ‘middling’ children that suffer. And my child is definitely a ‘middle’ one

Grammar schools do allow social mobility, grammar school children will often be successful enough to have the option of sending their children to private schools.

We are on a combined £120k gross and we can't afford it. DH and I have similar income so we are getting the max of both lower rate tax bands too. It's not just the school fees but also the cost of extra curricular. Sports and music both cost quite a bit. They are going to the local state schools and we aren't in a grammar area. So that probably help because we don't have worry about passing the 11+.

I know many parents who chose state for primary and private for secondary and none who did it the other way round. There are very very few choosing private primary in our village and where they do there are often special circumstances to do with the child's needs or a shortage of places that year and late arrival in the area (admittedly, there are probably slightly more than I think as I am less likely to meet the families who go private from the start). On the other hand, probably close to half are choosing private for secondary, even though the local comprehensive is pretty good. There is also a state grammar but it is extremely hard to get into (harder than any of the private schools). I think the reason for choosing state primary rather than secondary is less to do with the relative academic advantage and more to do with other factors. The local primary schools is at the heart of the community. As I said, pretty much everyone goes. Everyone walks to school. Everyone knows each other, attends the same events and activities and are in walking distance of all their friends. The kids and parents largely stay friends even after people move on to different state and private schools. There are no private schools within walking distance or that would given anything like the same integration into a local community.

As far as the question goes, our combined gross income is about 180k. We didn't consider it as I'm not a fan of selection by income unless the situtation facing your own child locally is particularly difficult. We have good state schools and my children were perfectly happy and successful. I think we could have managed, but we would have stayed in a smaller house and had cheaper holidays.

@ReneeX no I wasn't talking about faith schools but non grammars that give a number of places (not all places) based on test scores regardless of catchments. They can be based on music. drama, academic ability etc.

We are in Japan, but this was one of several reasons why we used a public elementary school and then looked for a private junior high through senior high school; there's value in a young child having local friends and being able to walk to school, whereas an over-12 can commute on public transport alone without having be taken by a parent, and they have reached the age where their strengths and interests are apparent, meaning that there's value in schools that specialize in various things.

whereas an over-12 can commute on public transport alone without having be taken by a parent

Yes, plus where we are the state secondary schools are not necessarily closer than the private schools anyway. Certainly not walking distance. And while this won't be true everywhere, it is more likely to be true as there are obviously more primary schools than secondary.

@greenteafiend The issue in the UK at the moment is that schools are so severely underfunded, you need a lot of external input to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of a child. This and previous governments obsessions with inclusion at all costs, have closed many special schools. It's not uncommon now to have a class of 31, no TA and half of them having SEN. A couple of them will have SEN so severe they need a 1:1 TA to even be able to sit in their seat. Of course that TA is nonexistent.

I have two DCs who are now young adults. One was educated (mainly) privately, including boarding school. The other went through the state system - ordinary primary and comprehensive school.
The private prep school wasn't great to be honest, though it did have its positives. The owners ran it as a personal project. The boarding school was fine, with great extra-curricular opportunities. DC had a good time and took advantage of the opportunities and got into Oxbridge.
The state primaries provided a decent education with good teachers and a good atmosphere with a big mix of children and the other DC was pretty happy and motivated at primary. They found comprehensive school rather boring and unchallenging (there was no setting, which made that worse). Luckily, there were no behaviour issues at the school. There was plenty of time to fit in extra-curricular academic things on top of school and the school did allow some flexibility when we asked for it, which made a real difference. DC got into Oxbridge.
Personality-wise, I think that being surrounded by rich kids who had everything done for them and having little freedom at boarding school (constant child protection issues) was not a good thing for privately-educated DC. State educated Dc had an evening job, was very independent, had a good work ethic and got on with everyone.
There were no issues between them about one going private and the other state. They get on extremely well and spend as much time as they can together.

but Are they of equal intelligence , twins even? They’re different people, would your DC who went private have done as well in state sector? Why did you chose to do it differently?

There are so many variables to consider in this- your mortgage (or not) being the biggest. The easiest way to work this out is to look at the annual fees, add a % for extra stuff and divide that by 12. Then calculate the increase over the next 7 years by adding 5-7% each year and % that by 12.
our DD is going into yr 7 in sept. The fees are £18k/year. Add £2k for extra stuff and divide by 12. So next year we need to have £1666 spare EVERY month for fees. The year after it goes to £1780 with a 7% increase etc.
only you know what all your outgoings are and which ones are essential and which ones you can cut back on if you need to, but do work out what it’s going to cost per month and consider that against what you realistically have spare.

@Dodgeitornot I haven't heard about any European country with the exception of Switzerland and Norway where schools are not underfunded...

@ReneeX ok? Lol I don't understand your point.

I honestly believe the early years of 4 to 11 are so vital, that's why I use a excellent Prep school. Its bonkers to have a child of 4 and predict they are bright enough for a top selective school.

I live in London which has non-selective state and private schools and selective state and private schools and everything in between, so for me I know I'll find a school that's right for my child.

That's why your statement , 'I just think that if that is the idea, parents should say so honestly, and not pretend that the reason they are using the prep is because of the nurturing little classes or pastoral care or marvellous music facilities or whatever.' It doesn't ring true for me. Take away the nurturing little classes, pastoral care and marvellous music facilities, its a deal breaker for me, because aged 4, aged 5, aged 6 those vital development years, I don't know if I have a top 2% child or average 50% child, but I've given them a fertile ground for learning with excellent facilities.

I don't believe in hot-house tutoring, a bright child with encouragement from supportive parents at an excellent primary school is more than enough for any type of school.

@SoFED Obviously they're different people, with different personalities and levels of intelligence. The private school DC was the gifted one. But it's not all about the schools. What happened outside of school was crucial. Opportunities are there, even if you're not particularly well off. I'm not talking about exam results and Oxbridge really, but about education in a wider sense.

@Duckyneedsaclean points I’d consider before committing would be 1. The possibility of a labour govt adding VAT to school fees. This would have two effects: Your personal affordability and also the viability of the school should a load of parents who are just about managing pull their kids out. 2. Your understanding of the viability of the school as it currently stands even before the question of removing charitable status is raised. There are some schools who are just about managing themselves following the rising operating costs such as utilities etc. 3. The teaching Staff turnover at the School.

Another point to consider is that children at private schools are on average quite a bit brighter than children at state schools. If your children are of average intelligence they may find they are in the lower sets at private school which is not great for their self esteem/ confidence.

If a family of 7, would only some children go??

To avoid resentment most people go for an all or nothing approach, otherwise it's unfair