Question for teachers - why do schools enforce uniform policies so strictly?

[justanotherdaduser]

Partly inspired by the thread below, but partly also triggered by y7 DD's experience in senior school, I was wondering why senior schools go to such lengths to stamp out minor uniform transgressions?

I don't think for a second that schools are stupid or are just tyrannical for the sake of it, so there must be some thinking behind this? Maybe slovenly uniform affects outcomes? Does it? Schools like Michaela talk a lot about smart appearance. Is that an end in itself or is there an impact on learning too?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/4751506-school-skirts-why-is-it-such-an-issue

DT’s from a non uniform school have managed to transition to adulthood without any problem and are now in graduate jobs. Their non uniform school did help them get all A’s. Their cousins from non uniform schools in the US, France and Belgium are also either in top Uni’s or working . What rules of logic have I not understood?

I appreciate they need to look smart but I wish common sense was applied. If girls can wear skirts all year round then boys (and girls) should be allowed to wear shorts.

The only time I've grumbled to school is because DD's school insists on black coats. Utterly stupid for safety reasons and it's a nightmare finding something suitable.

Fairislefandango has it right.
If uniform wasn't enforced it would all but disappear. I worked in a school that didn't enforce it and could could barely tell what the uniform was by looking at the kids.

Why have uniform at all is the real question.
If we're going to have it it's needs to be enforced or the line will just move and move until we haven't really got it.
I dont mind whether we have uniform or not, but if we have it it does need to be quite strictly enforced.

I have noticed behaviour is wildly different on non-uniform days. Maybe it wouldn’t be if kids wore their own clothes every day though?

In my experience (7 years secondary school teaching) the teenagers pushing boundaries over the uniform rules are also the ones who push boundaries against everything. They want to challenge authority/assert their own identity. And good for them, it’s part of becoming an adult. But I think they need clear boundaries to push back at and rebel against. Especially the ones who have chaotic home lives where anything goes.

‘At my dc private school everything is uniformed, simple and good quality right down to uniformed socks and shoes. Most people buy second hand and it definitely helps stop people know who comes from what background.‘

Well surely the difference between those with enough money and the genuinely poor is less extreme at a private school anyway.

Definitely that if the students (and parents) conform to the seemingly insignificant standards then the more important rules are also followed by students and supported by parents. I could visit a school and have a good indication of their results by looking at the uniform. I'd pay attention to how strict they are with uniform when choosing a school every time.

Do you not think that schools around the world where there is no school uniform also produce excellent results?

@QuitsAmidCrisis really not at all. Many are on bursaries or grandparents are paying the fees while the parents earn not a lot. It actually is probably a much bigger discrepancy than a state school.

Different experience. I never got the point to uniform at school, but now! I work in a hospital and honestly some of the teens we have coming through now literally think they can wear what they want and act how they want. I was really shocked at some of the attitudes. We provide uniform and many won’t wear it, choosing shirt skirts…and I mean short, with boots and it just isn’t appropriate for the setting. Some professions have a uniform that must be adhered to. These same people turn up late regularly and take extra breaks and there’s no apology. When the managers tried to sort it one of them got his mum to call in to have a go!!! He was caught watching films on his phone in front of the public. Sadly some believe they don’t need to follow rules. These kids are representing their school so I’m not sure it’s a bad thing. You don’t need to be draconian about it but it’s helped when there have been incidents and you know who to contact.

This is a fascinating thread, to see the different viewpoints and experiences. Personally I'm against uniform (though not against any policy at all regarding clothing in schools), but I understand that for some people, uniform is and has been very reassuring. But surely the point is that children and young people as just as attuned to financial inequality as anyone else, and the UK has undeniably become more socially unequal over the past 30-40 years: equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk
In my experience in schools, and of my own kids, enforcing uniform rules has become a distraction for teachers, leads to 'rebellions' in which girls in particular end up making even more inappropriate clothing choices than if they were allowed to wear non-uniform (as per the bum cheeks up thread), and is used by some schools/SLT as a cover for otherwise poor discipline in their schools.
Bottom line is that we need to address inequality (eg by reducing the gap between private sector and public sector incomes). And get rid of expensive and outdated uniforms.

My sons both went to non uniform schools and it really wasn’t an issue. All the kids seemed to wear t shirts/sweatshirts and jeans. I then went to work in a school with a very strict uniform policy and I was struck by the fact that about 80% of the communication between staff and students was the one telling the other off about uniform infringements - it seemed a shame that it set up each meeting to be a telling off.

Generalising a lot but :
Engaged Parents who value education are likely to look for schools who enforce a strict uniform policy.

Um. Im an engaged parent and couldn't give a shit about uniform policies. I'll help my child be comfortable and weather appropriate within the rules but I certainly didn't pick the school on it. It seems draconian and a waste of staff time and energy to worry about whether a pair of trousers is black enough and not faded.

I always ponder our definitions of engagement.

I couldn't give a shiny shit about uniform, homework or parent engagement apps. DD flatly refused to read books, and on the while I worked out it wasn't worth the battle

But all hell broke lose if I heard DD was misbehaving in class. Teachers quickly worked out that a quick way to get DD back on track was to mention they would call home. I still don't think I'm that scary but apparently I "never let these things go"

We also had lots of outings relevant to upcoming topics so when stuff did come up at school DD had real life experiences to relate to

I discounted schools that were so inflexible in there shoe policy the girls were actually wearing shoes that were rubbish for there feet. Partly because DD needed insoles and whatever to wear similar to others.

I'm not sure if that classes me as an engaged or disengaged parent

I work in a private school with an expensive uniform which is worn but not enforced in a draconian way. Kids are allowed to remove blazers when they like and wear comfortable shoes and sportswear when appropriate. The ethos is around respecting the child, the child’s views and treating them kindly. Behaviour appears excellent around the school although I know they have the same issue with vaping etc that state schools have. The girls hoik their skirts up.
My kids go to a state school where uniform policies are enforced strictly and is used to pick on kids. Teachers pounce on them if blazers aren’t on the minute they enter the gates. They have to ask for permission to take them off on blazing hot days. I think the way the policy is enforced undermines the respect the kids have for the teachers. I find some of the punishments petty, OTT and irrelevant to learning. The ethos is also apparently centred on respect but the uniform policy just undermines this because of how it is policed by certain teachers. Mainly SLT who seem to use it as a powertrip.

Something schools never acknowledge when defending their antiquated ludicrous uniforms is the impact in the child’s physical safety during the commute. I live in an area where there are private schools, grammar schools, and also couple of very rough schools. The children in private school uniform can’t commute to school on public transport because they’ll get harassed / robbed / beaten up over the colour of their tie, blazer, skirt etc. The grammar school kids also get abuse shouted at them and tend to travel in packs for safety reasons but it is not unusual for a grammar school child to be yelled at / shoved around / robbed during the commute.

If they didn’t have to wear a label proclaiming their destination they could avoid a lot of tribal hatred on the commute. Whatever you think about private/grammar schools it isn’t right that children are attacked while travelling.

Personally I’d like to see children told: no visible brands, and wear plain black or blue trousers or skirt or shorts of your choice. Wear a cotton t shirt of your choice. Wear a plain cotton hoodie, any colour, and trainers, any kind. Why not? What would be so horrific for schools about this?

And in certain places your uniform marks you out to sectarians as either one of us or one of them.

I believe when Lagan college opened in NI the children had Velcro badges on their blazers and did not wear ties when travelling to and from school.

I don't disagree but the op's question wasn't why do we have uniform but why is it enforced so strictly... I don't care if the kids at my school wear uniform, but they do wear it and so the rules around it need to be enforced or it is pointless.

I’m a teacher. I have to. From management

My experience of a strict uniform policy is it leads to theft between pupils. When a jumper or blazer is required - it is just taken from someone else locker rather than get the sanction of not having the correct item. Same with sports kit.
the outcome of enforcement in this instance negates the process IMO. School can’t seem to hear there is a theft issue and flatly denies it. Even though it’s an open topic amongst the pupils.

Haven't you ever heard of children mocking the belongings of others? They can be cruel, following behind a child in the corridor, full of smart arse remarks about tee shirts bought at the market or trainers made in Taiwan. They are vicious.
Perhaps, since you don't spend the day in your children's school, you don't see what's happening. Or perhaps you're right and this school hasn't any girls competing to be the most fashionable or boys showing off expensive sports kit or the latest technology.

@SammyScrounge that doesn't tend to happen at non uniform schools in my experience because everyone is wearing different things every day so they're all just used to human beings wearing a variety of clothes. And shock horror kids are taught to respect each other and respect differences. I'm not in the UK though, my kids go to an Educate Together school in Ireland. Not a private school, just not a Catholic one. I've spent loads of time in the school as a substitute SNA. Lovely, happy, relaxed vibe. I highly recommend it.

I went to a non uniform school, and it absolutely does happen. In the country I am from (with supposedly the happiest people and one of the best education systems) bullying is rife in schools and non uniform plays it’s part in that. As a teacher here I cannot think of anything worse than highlighting the differences between the more affluent pupils and disadvantaged. I remember the pressure we were under as kids to have certain trends and how awful it felt when we couldn’t afford some things. There is so much for teenagers to be anxious about without adding what they are going to wear to school to it.

In non-uniform schools you actually get more issues because each individual pupil decides
for.his/herself what is appropriate unless you draw up a policy which then becomes the new, much wider ranging clothing battlefield.

It’s not the uniform that’s the problem, it’s the way teachers enforce it. Making kids ask for permission to take their blazer off, measuring their skirts, shouting at them if a button is undone, giving them detention for not doing it back up, sending them home because their shoes are not polishable or their hair is too short, making them take a belt off because the buckle is too big. It undermines my respect for the teachers, can only imagine it does the same for the kids.

Are you talking about when you were in school in the 60s??