Question for teachers - why do schools enforce uniform policies so strictly?

[justanotherdaduser]

Partly inspired by the thread below, but partly also triggered by y7 DD's experience in senior school, I was wondering why senior schools go to such lengths to stamp out minor uniform transgressions?

I don't think for a second that schools are stupid or are just tyrannical for the sake of it, so there must be some thinking behind this? Maybe slovenly uniform affects outcomes? Does it? Schools like Michaela talk a lot about smart appearance. Is that an end in itself or is there an impact on learning too?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/4751506-school-skirts-why-is-it-such-an-issue

My workplace uniform is both supplied free (one set) and optional. It doesn't require an iron or a tie either.

Getting them ready for the workplace uniform. If they can’t conform to rules now how will they submit to their boss. That’s my sociological perspective..

So how come it's fine that they're allowed to wear what they like at college and university then? And even usually wear non-uniform in the sixth form in schools? Surely that's when they are actually 'getting ready for the workplace'? Besides, why should they wear a uniform when the majority of them will probably go to into jobs where they don't have to wear one? It's nonsense!

Besides, you don't neec practice to wear a uniform. If your job demands it, you just wear one and that's that. Arguably it would be more useful to learn how to dress appropriately for school/work without a uniform.

... because that actually requires some thought and choice.

I love the idea of a uniform, although I agree it needs to be made simpler. As a sixth former it was very stressful deciding what to wear. Now, I know several children in secondary who were 'sick' on mufti day.

Non- uniform adds far too much pressure for many children who already have so much to deal with.

That's not my experience.

Saved all year to be able to kit DD out properly like many do, nothing special there I get, but when shoes broke and something had happened and I couldn't replace something in their time frame DD was punished, they knew the situation and just didn't appear to care, no help offered just "We understand, but unfortunately if she can't adhere to the uniform after the 24 hours leeway then we have no choice"

I'd always replaced lost/missing/broken/out grown items as a matter of course, this time I couldn't.

But, I had to have clothes for her out of school, to be changed into after school (to try and extend the life of the uniform) and for weekends and holidays. These didn't have to be to set rules, or replaced within 24 hours with the same rules applied if they were no longer available. Those clothes had multiple uses. The uniform didn't.

It doesn't make everyone the same when you actively separate kids who can't afford to buy or replace, it does exactly the opposite. And it's not a teaching moment about discipline, because despite what some people think, you can't teach someone to not be poor, nor discipline them out of it.

@Maverickess sorry to hear that, I have worked in many schools and all the ones I have worked in have understood if it has needed a few days to sort something out it if there are money problems we have always found a way to help

Perhaps it’s got something to do with instilling discipline and preparation for being in the big wide world, where, like it or not, you have to conform to rules and regulations, particularly in the work place. I know, I know, some of you will be up in arms about that, ready to poo poo it, but honestly, the fact is that sometimes there are expectations that we have to conform to, however much it might stick in the throat.
Also, you know, imagine if, in any of the organisations that require uniforms in your chosen career, eg, armed forces, (or nursing, fire fighting, police, etc), individuals decided that they’d comply with certain aspects of the uniform, but really, you know, “ it wont matter that much if I choose to have a shorter hemline on my skirt/trousers; or I don’t like gold buttons, I’d prefer silver ones, or I don’t want to wear black shiny boots I’d prefer brown ones, or I don’t like blue, I prefer green, etc, etc), what would their senior officers have to say about that?
Schools also have standards, and if you choose to send your child to a particular school with a set uniform then you have to expect to comply with its expectations. Life can be tough, can’t it?

I once asked some girls why they rolled up their skirts. They said that if they didn’t the boys called them nuns. They were pressurised from both sides - from the boys to show their legs and from the teachers to cover up

In many cases (of course not always), school uniform blurs differences between the pupils who have and pupils who don’t: e.g. kids are less likely to notice certain peers wear exactly the same items of clothes every day; strict policies such as those including school rucksacks minimise peer pressure involving brands.
Some heads also sweat the small stuff with things like uniform as they believe there’s an element of something a little like broken window theory. While I think we need to pick our battles and a small hoop earring isn’t going to affect a child’s education, I do believe that kids can often continue to push boundary after boundary and flouting of school rules can sometimes escalate. I also think uniform is an important marker of a school’s values for some heads and the prospective families they are trying to attract.

Exactly this.
plus If children cannot be made to adhere to something as simple as following a uniform rule, then they would never be able to adhere to other rules that life / adulthood comes with
this argument comes up all the time and it’s annoying that adults on MN cannot seem to get the logic of rules. Why do you want your kids in school with various outfits and colours?

Because they should.

A more challenging intake will likely have a highly level of SEN, and trauma based behaviour.

There's good argument to suggest you are better removing irrelevant barriers to learning rather than enforcing rules harder.

Your clothes are irrelevant to your ability to learn.

unless you have significant sensory issues, then a rigid unform can actually be a significant barrier to learning.

School uniform really is a weird British obsession

Unless your child never attends residentials or socialises outside of school, your child is going to experience brand snobbery in a uniform school.

DD at uniformed school was desperately worried about her clothes for a school residental. I flatly refused to buy brands, partly cost, partly on principle.

She saved her own pocket money to upgrade the supermarket trainers I could afford to a much loved pair of nikes

She got some Nike tshirts for her birthday.

I then picked up a couple of branded sweatshirts second hand as good as new, because frankly they were decent quality.

It's worth pointing out at this point the clothes she wore for her residential formed the bulk of her home wardrobe for many years after. If she didn't need school uniform she would have happily worn them to school as well. The Nike trainers lasted 6 years.

At that point i started to reexamine what i knew about label snobbery. DD and I then started looking at thing like did the clothes offer good value for money, were they comfortable, were they decent fabric. DD started to become adept at spotting fakes.

DS hollister tracksuit bottoms cost only a couple of pounds more than primark.

DD's secondary school (deprived area) the kids all wore kickers boots or DM boots because they lasted (Not unusual for them to be passed sibling to sibling).

Nike and branded clothing was being handed sibling to sibling regardless of gender or being sold on second hand. Branded clothing was being picked up cheap at a nearby outlet and being sold on after use.

Brand snobbery at DD's deprived area school was as much about what people could afford as what they couldn't.

We were on the secondary school uniform assistance scheme because of low income, it bought two sets of uniform in the time they were at the school and one blazer.

In the time DD (ADHD) was in the school she lost
2 blazers
2 complete sets of PE kit
Several partial bits of PE kit
Goodness knows how many stupidly expensive Regulation PE socks
About 2 ties a term
So many jumpers (forced to wear them at certain points of the day and DD hates jumpers so strips them off at the first opportunity, then loses them I stopped buying jumpers on principle)
Destroyed more than a few shirts

DS (significant SEN) Lost so many ties, pe sweat shirts and jumpers I lost count. He also couldn't manage buttons or the hook and eye things so after a certain age even school trousers became very expensive.

The two sets of uniform really didn't go very far. And my two actually left (covid) before they would even have been entitled to the second set.

This was at least a school with a generally reasonably priced uniform, id have been crippled at the prices sone people were paying. (Of course this meant the blazer was horrible cheap polyester and therefore deathly uncomfortable a significant part of the year). When they had the second hand shop I would go buy anything in vaguely the right size whatever condition.

Both kids needed significantly more clothing because of school uniform. School unform cannot be worn in school holidays or for socialising after school or at weekends. Also I had to buy multiple stuff that DD would never voluntarily wear (jumpers, blazers, jumpers in PE). Cos she doesn't wear it unless really really needs it she doesn't need at many and only wears it when she really needs it so doesn't lose as much stuff

I'm not a teacher but have worked in a connected field. It's been my experience that when parents are polled the uniform and enforcing uniform rules are usually one of the major, if not the main, concerns.

Oh and don't get me started on the uniform Regulation backpack that turned out not to be waterproof and ruined DD mobile phone

I did supply for years, both in schools and FE colleges.

FE colleges most kids turn up in jeans and no time is wasted on telling someone to tuck their shirt in.

From the supply point of view it's difficult to memorise 30 kids in 1 hour so if I have to report behaviour it's easier to say, "wearing the purple T shirt" or find them on CCTV.

Obviously this is different for teachers who are in the same school for years.

I think it's broken windows theory (which is not as airtight as is popularly thought).

Because it’s important to spend a good chunk of your life freezing your ass off in a polyester shirt, jumper and skirt combo with blocks of ice for feet. You need to be uncomfortable to learn.

I find our country’s insistence on uniform embarrassing and outdated.

So many countries don’t have uniform and cope just fine. Why are we so special? Why is our kids’ behaviour so bad that they need uniform to instil discipline? Why do our children need uniform to prepare them for work? And what happens at university when they don’t wear uniform; how on earth will they learn to dress smartly when they eventually enter the world of work?

Uniform does not eliminate bullying. It’s always obvious who has money and who doesn’t. And it makes own-clothes days stressful and pressured.

Uniform should be removed. And I say that as someone whose kids didn’t really mind wearing uniform and rarely rebelled. I know my children and their friends thought that the teachers who were obsessed with uniform were rather pathetic though. They had much more respect for the teachers who concentrated on the important stuff (thankfully the vast majority).

But how do you think schools in other countries manage without uniform? What makes us unique?

Do you honestly think kids wearing their own clothes at 14 will mean they will be unable to follow rules of employment at 21?

‘Why do you want your kids in school with various outfits and colours?‘
How on earth will this affect academic learning?

I went to a school in Germany where the poor were highlighted because they couldn't afford the latest fashion item. They would have probably preferred a uniform!
At my dc private school everything is uniformed, simple and good quality right down to uniformed socks and shoes. Most people buy second hand and it definitely helps stop people know who comes from what background. The school are very strict about uniform but when it comes to days outside the school they look really nice all together with their smart uniforms on so I'm happy about it.

I think for my dc it definitely helps to have a 'school outift' to learn in and then separate weekend clothes to relax in. Not saying it is for everyone of course but I'd hate to see school uniform go. I also know what a faff it would be for our family if school had no uniform.

Another thing about uniforms is a certain amount of snobbery.

The original school uniforms were for charity schools, many of which became private schools.

Until WWII private schools had uniforms, state schools generally didn't.

When grammar schools were introduced some private schools became grammars and kept their uniforms.

New grammars also created uniforms, secondary moderns generally didn't have uniforms. So your uniform

When comprehensive schools arrived they also adopted uniforms.

When I was at primary in the 1970s only private schools had uniforms before age 11, but uniforms filtered down into primaries and I believe there are now some nurseries with uniforms.

I quite like the way Italy does things, young children wear a sort of smock called a grembiule. It keeps clothes clean while they are at kindergarten and children can dress for the weather underneath.

This.

Kids en masse need boundaries. Even if it's a non uniform school there needs to be a clear rule on what is allowable.

The schools which have clear boundaries are nicer to work in, for staff and students.