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Secondary education

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SW London Private and Grammar - applying for Year 7 in 2023 (Part VI)

1000 replies

QuiteAJourney · 09/02/2023 21:11

Following from our previous thread (link below)

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4731973-sw-london-private-and-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023-part-v?page=40&reply=123775541

Looking forward to continuing the journey together!

OP posts:
QuiteAJourney · 15/02/2023 08:55

@NellyCortado Thanks so much, I will pm you.

OP posts:
woohooho · 15/02/2023 08:57

Just asked DD about A levels at WHS. She has to get a 7 in the subjects she wants to do- apparently Maths needs a 9. The info posted below is for external candidates I think.

HawaiiWake · 15/02/2023 09:11

Subject of GCSEs required grade for A levels, I believe the jump in the subjects knowledge meant it moves at a certain pace so if you get a 4 in Physics this equals to A levels being super hard.
Also, on UCAS website it states for A levels you need at least a grade 6 on the subject. So schools tend to follow these guidelines?

BonjourCrisette · 15/02/2023 09:17

I can't even see how this is relevant to most of these girls. Surely the vast majority of them are going to get 7+ in pretty much every subject anyway. If you do get lower than a 7, choosing your weakest subject(s) for A Level seems ill-advised at best.

Jibberty · 15/02/2023 09:19

HawaiiWake · 15/02/2023 09:11

Subject of GCSEs required grade for A levels, I believe the jump in the subjects knowledge meant it moves at a certain pace so if you get a 4 in Physics this equals to A levels being super hard.
Also, on UCAS website it states for A levels you need at least a grade 6 on the subject. So schools tend to follow these guidelines?

Well, quite. It's simply logical that getting a 5 in maths means it's quite likely that maths A level probably isn't your best move. Or scraping a 5 each in Biology and Chemistry suggests science pathways might not be the best fit.

University offers are generally based on getting certain grades. A levels are just following the same pattern.

There's not a hope in hell that my daughter will want to study maths A level. She's predicted a 7, but that's a stretch, and she quite frankly can't wait to jettison subjects to concentrate on the A levels she's super keen to do.

Schools she's looking at for 6th Form - KCS and Westminster in particular, require 8/9 in subjects she wishes to study for A level, together with passing admission processes.

Pyrfwondering · 15/02/2023 09:32

Gosh, no sooner have the offer letters dropped through the letterbox, after months of stressing about the exam prep, the exams, whether there's going to be a place for DC, we're into whether the A Level results are good enough or the criteria to take them are too stretching and schools managing students out... mixed in with the risk of all cohorts spiralling into a den of iniquity.

Take a breath everyone. There are 7 years until A Levels. Everyone's DC have a lot of development and learning ahead. Who knows A Levels and uni may not be the right path? Together, with you, they'll figure out what they enjoy, thrive and excell at.

Right now, those with offers have options to access the education style/approach that suits them. Try not to get too far ahead and spoil the enjoyment of the moment you've all been waiting for.

HawaiiWake · 15/02/2023 09:38

Pyrfwondering · 15/02/2023 09:32

Gosh, no sooner have the offer letters dropped through the letterbox, after months of stressing about the exam prep, the exams, whether there's going to be a place for DC, we're into whether the A Level results are good enough or the criteria to take them are too stretching and schools managing students out... mixed in with the risk of all cohorts spiralling into a den of iniquity.

Take a breath everyone. There are 7 years until A Levels. Everyone's DC have a lot of development and learning ahead. Who knows A Levels and uni may not be the right path? Together, with you, they'll figure out what they enjoy, thrive and excell at.

Right now, those with offers have options to access the education style/approach that suits them. Try not to get too far ahead and spoil the enjoyment of the moment you've all been waiting for.

Agree! It was to answer an earlier question posted if certain schools managed out or tell DC they can’t do a certain subjects at A levels. This would impact their offers selection. So a few have replied to explain the way it has been done by different schools etc. Hopefully, they can decide and release the offers they don’t need to help WL.

Mumyofthree · 15/02/2023 09:39

@NellyCortado Thanks a lot for offering to help. We also have an offer

Mumyofthree · 15/02/2023 09:42

@NellyCortado sorry, just pressed post too soon. Will DM you as we also have an offer from WHS and would be delighted to have some info on the school. Thanks a lot.

WimMum2015 · 15/02/2023 10:04

Thank you @1forward2back .
Read here it'll be on the website so was checking the same thing. But looks like that is the case for all schools and I get the reasoning behind it.
But do a higher % of Tiffin girls need tutoring than their peers in independent schools due to lack of quality teaching and/or the teacher support not being equal for all sets?

LondonMum20222 · 15/02/2023 10:20

Parent123456 · 14/02/2023 19:41

Hi all it has been a few days of brainstorming on our hand and I would like to ask a few questions for previous /prospective parents of SPGS. I have had a chat with some parents with girls there and some of the stories make me doubt our decision a little bit. We are quite a "strict" family and when I heard about girls coming with piercing (although not in Y7), some girls being high at 8.00 when they arrived at school, I am not sure I want to send my DD I would appreciate to see if those were "exceptional" and not the norm. Or is it like this in every top private school now? For parents with DD there, would you say the school really brings something different and what more than G&L or HB for example or or do you think your daughter would have done as well elsewhere?
My other worries is around 6th form, I have heard (again from parents from school, I appreciate it might not be everyone's pov) that some girls are being asked to leave if they want to chose a subject where their prediction of grades is not A/A*. Again is that true? and if yes is that true in all other London top private? Does anyone have an idea of movement at 6th form? It looks like the number of candidates at A level are lower than at GCSE? I know some people comes from elsewhere at that point (HB and so on). Are some girls moving to coed at that point? do you have a sense of how many? sorry for all the questions.

I'm genuinely a bit confused as to why your DD has applied to SPGS. It's a school renowned for its liberal ethos. So, yes, some girls may have piercings and dye their hair. I'm not sure why that's an issue. They're still incredibly bright, engaged, curious young women. But if those things bother you (and that's not the kind of culture you want for your DD) then clearly it's not the right school for you as a family. As for the "kids turning up high" - just be careful what you believe. I've heard this - and much, much worse - about pretty much every London day school. If you believe all the nonsense urban myths you hear about London schools you'd homeschool them for the next decade.

redrobin75 · 15/02/2023 10:36

WimMum2015 · 15/02/2023 10:04

Thank you @1forward2back .
Read here it'll be on the website so was checking the same thing. But looks like that is the case for all schools and I get the reasoning behind it.
But do a higher % of Tiffin girls need tutoring than their peers in independent schools due to lack of quality teaching and/or the teacher support not being equal for all sets?

I'm not a Tiffin parent but even if you did need a bit more tutoring would it matter v the saving in fees? Plus the Tiffin girls Oxbridge results are unrivalled against most of the private girls schools in the whole UK so it depends what you are looking for and what you want to pay for.

Parent123456 · 15/02/2023 10:43

@LondonMum20222 Well we applied there because our school said it would be a good fit as our daughter is very academic.
I may be a bit oversensitive this week, but I am not sure why people are getting so annoyed/defensive when questions are asked about SPGS.
Remarks like "it is not of your business", "why is it an issue" etc, not sure where all this is coming from.. Some parents may just want to accept the offers straight away there and we will probably do so anyway but want to understand the culture / what types of girls go there etc. Getting an idea of the school with an hour tour is not easy and I try to understand what makes SPGS unique.

LondonMum20222 · 15/02/2023 10:52

@Parent123456 I don't think I was being defensive, and certainly didn't mean to come across as such. As I say, I was just genuinely confused that you wouldn't already have a feel for whether the school was a good fit having presumably gone on an Open Day and done some due diligence before applying. An academic fit is only one of the (very complex) pieces of the jigsaw when choosing a senior school. As has been discussed many times on these threads, most DCs will end up with the same outcomes whichever school they go to (of the schools that get discussed on these threads). The culture is what's key in deciding whether a child is going to be happy and thrive in a particular school. I think if you feel the liberal ethos of SPGS would clash with your own home / parental values then that might prove problematic for your DD. What are your other offers and do you have similar concerns about the culture of those schools?

LondonMum20222 · 15/02/2023 10:53

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MomFromSE · 15/02/2023 12:13

BookMan2 · 15/02/2023 08:14

“Yes managing out students who the school thinks will get a B or less at A level is not unheard of and even considered normal.”

This is so disheartening, these schools are the opposite of what a school should be, turfing out a child to a public examination centre on the threat of a B.

Damaging a bright child’s confidence because the school is worried about its image. Schools are meant to find the brilliance in every child and help them focus in on that and grow their confidence in that. These schools are focused on their own brilliance.

These are children who would be stars in a more balanced school and maybe even have a fun time in school but are instead being beaten down over, frankly inconsequential “B” grades in the fullness of time and left with mental health scars that will last them a lifetime.

Accepting this is like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Just terrible imho that this could be classed as normal or acceptable.

@BookMan2 I agree this is so disheartening. Personally we ruled out options as a family that have an aggressive reputation for managing kids out and manipulating their results.

Its also why I hate league tables. It creates the wrong incentives for schools whose focus turns for supporting their pupils to promoting themselves. The law breaking scandal at St Olaves is a perfect example of this in the grammar sector. One of our local comps manipulated their admission criteria to avoid a local estate for years as well until formally challenged.

You can’t compare the results between schools without understanding how they treat the children they are meant to educate and equally drive schools to really abhorrent behaviour. They are so toxic…

Parent123456 · 15/02/2023 12:15

I don t feel the ethos will necessarily clash. I think it is a big step up for any DD between primary and secondary anyway and our daughters will need to find themselves. The other schools we are looking at are G&L, LU, and HB (if successful). I feel that the step up in terms of school culture for G&L and HB will be less as they seem more traditional. The change to LU (with coed education and a more diverse population) will be probably as big as SPGS in my mind.
I am also conscious that although probably very academic my daughter will be with girls that will be as bright or even brighter than her. and it is difficult to predict how she will react to that, will it motivates her or will it lower her confidence? is being in a less academic school then brings more opportunities and better self esteem? I maybe just a weirdo and thinking too much about it .. if I am the only one asking myself those questions.

HawaiiWake · 15/02/2023 12:19

@Parent123456 , have you asked your DD her views? Secondary schools is not just academic but clubs, sport, music and drama etc. Unless she is not fuss about those aspects?

secondaryquandries · 15/02/2023 12:26

The talk of liberal and traditional schools is interesting. I'm not sure I gleaned that I for from all the schools that I visited. Does anyone have a sense of where KGS sits on the spectrum?

NYE2023 · 15/02/2023 14:43

Parent123456 · 15/02/2023 12:15

I don t feel the ethos will necessarily clash. I think it is a big step up for any DD between primary and secondary anyway and our daughters will need to find themselves. The other schools we are looking at are G&L, LU, and HB (if successful). I feel that the step up in terms of school culture for G&L and HB will be less as they seem more traditional. The change to LU (with coed education and a more diverse population) will be probably as big as SPGS in my mind.
I am also conscious that although probably very academic my daughter will be with girls that will be as bright or even brighter than her. and it is difficult to predict how she will react to that, will it motivates her or will it lower her confidence? is being in a less academic school then brings more opportunities and better self esteem? I maybe just a weirdo and thinking too much about it .. if I am the only one asking myself those questions.

A friends DD who got a place a few years back asked about the issue of what it’s like to be a very bright girl but still bottom of the class . She was told all the girls recognise they are all very bright & they’ve passed a very high bar to get in so there just isn’t the concept of the “class dunce “. That reply came from a pupil rather than the school. Said DD did indeed struggle with one GCSE choice but had stellar a levels and uni choices. SPGS only offer places to those they think will thrive there so best not to overthink this .

FWIW My DC were given the final decision on school choice ( we were happy with any of the options ). It’s really helpful if they can buy into it too.

You also mentioned drugs in one of your posts . There probably isn’t a SW London indie ( or state school ) that hasn’t had some sort of issue with drugs ; and indeed there is little that they can do to stop what goes on outside of school. However the important thing is what they do about it - many have a zero tolerance towards drugs . I would imagine the problem is a little worse for those schools further into London and which typically have wealthier families . They probably grow up a bit less quickly at the more suburban schools.

LondonMum20222 · 15/02/2023 14:57

Parent123456 · 15/02/2023 12:15

I don t feel the ethos will necessarily clash. I think it is a big step up for any DD between primary and secondary anyway and our daughters will need to find themselves. The other schools we are looking at are G&L, LU, and HB (if successful). I feel that the step up in terms of school culture for G&L and HB will be less as they seem more traditional. The change to LU (with coed education and a more diverse population) will be probably as big as SPGS in my mind.
I am also conscious that although probably very academic my daughter will be with girls that will be as bright or even brighter than her. and it is difficult to predict how she will react to that, will it motivates her or will it lower her confidence? is being in a less academic school then brings more opportunities and better self esteem? I maybe just a weirdo and thinking too much about it .. if I am the only one asking myself those questions.

There's been a ton of chat on this thread over the months about whether it's better for a bright child to be top of the cohort in a very slightly less academic school or in the bottom quarter of a superselective, and there were views in pretty much every direction! I think you know your DD best and how she'd fare in that set-up. For some it would be hugely demotivating and knock their self confidence. For others it might be a challenge. But I think both you - and more importantly she - need to feel that it's a place culturally that fits with her personality. You have a fantastic list of schools there. It's now just about choosing the best fit (and ignoring the white noise about which is the "best school" - as people have said on here repeatedly, there's no best school, only the school that's best for your child).

WombatChocolate · 15/02/2023 15:05

These schools are so successful primarily because they are so selective. When they have picked the very best, it’s not really a surprise that they achieve the best results.
And to then carry this trend onto the 6th Form and A Level results, they need to do the same again. By then, they have more data - the GCSE results. Most these days don’t say students can’t return to the 6th Form, but will have stringent requirements for individual subjects. It’s not uncommon to say 9 needed to do Maths and 8/9 or at least 7 for other subjects. For most, this is fine, as even if they have a grade or two below this, they have enough subjects at the required level to find subjects they can do at A Level. Where it’s hard, is for the small handful of students who don’t fit the norm and have a string of lower grades. And when you look at school results and see the small number of grades below L8/9 or below L7-9 (depending on how selective the school you’re looking at is) it’s actually often, that a small number of students account for a large proportion of the lower grades. There will only be a couple who achieve the lowest grade the school gets, in multiple subjects. It’s just how it is.
For those students, it’s hard. They might still be considered bright or average in another environment. Grade 5 and 6 might be perfectly good enough for A Level study in lots of places, but in a very selective school, might be seen as shockingly low. Despite what people say, if you always feel you’re at the bottom for pretty much everything, it does take its toll. Even if you’re reminded that you’re still able, you probably won’t feel it and knowing you might not meet the grade requirements for certain subjects, can means a demoralising fear through GCSE years. Students like these are far less likely to be ‘culled’ than perhaps a few years ago, as it gets such a bad press and parents hate to think it could happen to their child. Instead, they might be offered a very narrow range of options that don’t appeal, and consequently choose to go elsewhere. They haven’t been culled, but often they feel like they have.
Is it right or wrong? On lots of levels, being at a very different level to the majority just isn’t a satisfying experience and if the class will move at a fast pace because everyone else is at that level, it might be unpleasant, and slowing significantly not realistic.

Persoanlly, I think it’s worth always thinking of 6th Form as a different phase of education. In schools that run to 18, most might stay, but pretty much all should at least consider what all the options are, even if they then decide to stay where they are. Being somewhere different is quite often a good thing for some students and not necessarily a bad thing. In most schools a number move for all kinds of reasons, like preferring college or wanting to go mixed instead of singel sex, etc etc. So, with that in mind, don’t worry too much about 6th Form. In all likelihood, your DC will be fine to remain in the 6th Form …should they choose to…and they might not, plus actually sometimes somewhere else would actually be better and going to that place instead of remaining is actually far better, even if initially it doesn’t feel like that.

If your child has a place at one of these very good schools, they are very fortunate. They will have great opportunities and a chance to do well. Quite what that means for them individually will only become clearer as time progresses. And then you can think about 6th Form once you have a clearer idea. And again, you are in the fortunate position of being able to access somewhere really good again.

MomFromSE · 15/02/2023 16:08

@WombatChocolate I think its very different deciding you want to leave vs being asked to leave / essentially being forced out. There really is no sugar coating it-- its incredibly awful even if it doesn't happen to your child. I have friends whose daughters have seen this happen to their friends and it:

  1. Amplifies stress for all-- not doing well on your exams isn't just an academic disappointment but means you could be ripped from your entire social circle and forced out of your school.
  2. Tells children they are only valued for their academics not as holistically as individuals

Publicly ranking schools in this way completely distorts the pupil-school relationship. The 11+ is bad enough but culling receives bad press because it very well should- its totally disgusting.

GirlInterrupt · 15/02/2023 16:09

My DS is in his first year (year 7) at KGS. As you probably know, hockey is the main winter sport that they all play (in their games afternoon and Saturday training) and most will be in a team if they want (they go all the way down to an F team, albeit the A-C teams have more fixtures!). A lot of the kids haven’t played hockey before, but most seem to enjoy getting involved.

A lot of the boys also do football. It is offered as an after school club and some Saturday training also (when hockey not on). A lot of the boys do both hockey and football - you don’t have to choose one or the other. My son doesn’t play football so I’m not 100% sure, but I think they have the two teams (A and B). As you say, not as many fixtures as hockey but they definitely have fixtures particularly in the Autumn term.

As I’m sure you know, they don’t offer rugby.

Cricket is the main sport in summer and offered as an after school club in Spring term also. So if your son is a keen cricketer he’ll get plenty of opportunity to play. Not sure how many teams they have, but I’m sure the registrar will find out for you if you want to know - In my experience they are very helpful with random questions!

It’s a lovely school IMO. My son is very happy there, and our younger son has just been offered a place also which we are thrilled about.

hope that helps.

GirlInterrupt · 15/02/2023 16:15

@Trickleg meant to tag you (user fail!) see reply above re sport @ KGS ….

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