Unwanted School Imposition

[LisaRear]

Before the summer holiday, my DS's year was given a range of exams after coming back from Covid home education. The general results were poor for the whole year. The school is now seeking to impose a move into some easier subjects for many of these pupils, we feel to manage their generally good history of results. All the previous results for our boy contradict his own result, but the school is not budging. Apart from removal, or private, what remedy, legal or otherwise, do we have? We strongly feel that these subject choices will impact the future and wish to negotiate a longer evaluation period (such as up to Christmas), while some home support kicks in to ensure success. But the school is unwilling for this, we suppose as it might create a precedent.

Funnily enough, FIL opposed the school over a similar issue with DH's step-brother's science GCSEs. As FIL happened to be a Governor the school gave way and changed his set back.

We never actually found out what Dstepbro's exact results were, only that he didn't get into sixth form.

I can't fathom why you would risk a history student's uni place for this.

@myrtleWilson

Whats the drop off OP - where does your son normally sit attainment wise in science and what were the results of this test - whether that is in form of a % mark or a GCSE grade or schools own grading system

Sorry, cooking. About 80%. Don't want to leave the scores for this years year average here in case of breadcrumbs - but appalling, hence why they're in panic stations.

@LisaRear

There are a number of issues. First Judicial Review in normal times would take at least 3 to 5 months. However at present there is a large backlog of cases in the court system and I would be very surprised that this would be of any use to you in seeking to win a judgment to force the school to change their decision, unless you want your son to repeat year 11 which I suspect would not be the case if he is a high achiever anyway and probably not possible within the state system in any event.

Secondly, is the school still running the separate sciences too and your son has just been redirected to the combined sciences course? If the latter then I would seriously let it drop. Some schools only do combined sciences and as stated above pupils still go on to do STEM A levels and STEM degrees at Oxbridge and other RG/high end unis.

If they are running separate sciences still and you insist on your son taking that route against their advice then that is a different matter.

It would be a case of on your (your son's) head be it were he to take separate sciences and end up with poorer grades.

If History is his passion at present I would assume he would be selecting that at A level maybe. When does he have to select his A level choices, around February maybe?

Sorry in my SEcondly comment I meant to say as the latter point are they only doing the combined course now and not offering separate sciences.

Combined science has less science in it than Triple science. There are areas not covered in CS and while you can of course do A-level science, there will be some areas other students will have a slight head start in.
There is nothing wrong in pushing your child to do better.

But as has already been explained numerous times, doing double science does not preclude doing 3 science A levels. Some schools only offer double science, but children at those schools still go on take science A levels and degrees. Although it's a moot point as it doesn't appear OP's son is likely to do science A level anyway.

And the point is that it isn't pushing the child to do 'better', it's pushing them to do 'more' which might actually be counter-productive…

Sorry, cooking. About 80%. Don't want to leave the scores for this years year average here in case of breadcrumbs - but appalling, hence why they're in panic stations.

saying "80%" doesn't mean anything at all, unless you know the grade boundaries. We have no idea if you are comparing like with like.

YOu can't compare end of topic tests with a full mock, for example. 80% in end of topic tests is likely to translate into something more like 40% in a full mock.

I doubt anyone is at "panic stations". I expect the school has the expertise and experience to evaluate and extrapolate from the results, and the result of that was to put your child in double science, from triple.

They will have done similar every year for very many years.

Who is telling you the average marks are "appalling"? - would it be your sone by any chance?

Double Science has been a very normal subject for a long time - I did it back in school. It doesn't in any way stop you doing Science at A Level.

If you're really bothered that he will be missing out on one area, eg physics or biology, whichever interests him the most, get him a tutor and do some studying in your own time at home.

Taking the LA to court over this sound ridiculous and a massive overreaction for A GCSE subject. It seems like you've misunderstood what the Double Science is, sorry.

I've just seen you've said his true love is history!
What are you doing? Stop buggering about with science, let him pass the double and focus on his humanities subjects!

Oxford admissions for instance consider GCSEs alongside As.

Even for Medicine, Oxford happily accept Combined Science at GCSE. Grades matter-not the science option picked. It is not the ‘dummy’ option you seem to think it is, OP.

Level of attainment in Science and Mathematics
There are no formal GCSE requirements for Medicine. However, in order to be adequately equipped for the BMAT and for the academic demands of the course, and if Biology, Physics or Mathematics have not been taken to A-level (or equivalent), applicants will need to have received a basic education in those subjects (for example at least a grade C/4 at GCSE, Intermediate 2 or Standard grade (Credit) or equivalent; the GCSE Dual Award Combined Sciences is also appropriate).

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/medicine

And I find it shocking that an employer is wilfully discriminating against potential employees based on inaccurate and biased judgement as opposed to factual knowledge and I hope a future candidate raises their own ‘judicial review’ against the OP’s company for such practices.

It’s probably worth saying that the Combined Science content, in the new curriculum, is actually very close to the old Triple content - so the gap to A level is much smaller than it used to be. Dd did Combined, got 99 and went on to far exceed the marks of many of her triple-taking classmates at A level. There was a single unit in Y13 (none in Y12) where she had not covered required GCSE content that was covered in triple, and the school taught it again anyway as the triple - takers had forgotten it....

She started at Oxbridge last week. No issues at all with ‘only’ taking double Science at GCSE - all thr admissions tutors said that ot was always grades, not numbers, they would look at - so 99 much better than 887, for example.

So unless you are convinced that your DS will get 3 GCSEs at the same grades as he would get for double (so 999 or 998 vs 99) then it is better for highly selective universities to do double and get the highest grades.

Equally better to get 9 GCSEs all at 9s/8s than 10 with a couple of 7s

@Orangejuicemarathoner

Sorry, cooking. About 80%. Don't want to leave the scores for this years year average here in case of breadcrumbs - but appalling, hence why they're in panic stations.

saying "80%" doesn't mean anything at all, unless you know the grade boundaries. We have no idea if you are comparing like with like.

YOu can't compare end of topic tests with a full mock, for example. 80% in end of topic tests is likely to translate into something more like 40% in a full mock.

I doubt anyone is at "panic stations". I expect the school has the expertise and experience to evaluate and extrapolate from the results, and the result of that was to put your child in double science, from triple.

They will have done similar every year for very many years.

Yawn, spot the irate teacher.

For all in-school exams, tests etc. my child averages 80% across the board if you want to split hairs, throw up dust, knock yourself out.

[quote SeasonFinale]@LisaRear

There are a number of issues. First Judicial Review in normal times would take at least 3 to 5 months. However at present there is a large backlog of cases in the court system and I would be very surprised that this would be of any use to you in seeking to win a judgment to force the school to change their decision, unless you want your son to repeat year 11 which I suspect would not be the case if he is a high achiever anyway and probably not possible within the state system in any event.

Secondly, is the school still running the separate sciences too and your son has just been redirected to the combined sciences course? If the latter then I would seriously let it drop. Some schools only do combined sciences and as stated above pupils still go on to do STEM A levels and STEM degrees at Oxbridge and other RG/high end unis.

If they are running separate sciences still and you insist on your son taking that route against their advice then that is a different matter.

It would be a case of on your (your son's) head be it were he to take separate sciences and end up with poorer grades.

If History is his passion at present I would assume he would be selecting that at A level maybe. When does he have to select his A level choices, around February maybe?[/quote]
The hope is that flexibility will prevail and such things are just a cudgel in the background.

Yes, they're still running, with a very slimmed-down group.

History stands out, if I had to choose but that doesnt detract from an interest across the baord. If you think of your own intellectual development, I'm sure that you'll recognise that alert minds are pulled in multiple directions as different inspirations come into view. It's good to have a solid and comprehensive base.

@Orangejuicemarathoner

Who is telling you the average marks are "appalling"? - would it be your sone by any chance?

Previous results at similar end of year tests, parents with children in older years.

@ChloeDecker

Oxford admissions for instance consider GCSEs alongside As.

Even for Medicine, Oxford happily accept Combined Science at GCSE. Grades matter-not the science option picked. It is not the ‘dummy’ option you seem to think it is, OP.

Level of attainment in Science and Mathematics
There are no formal GCSE requirements for Medicine. However, in order to be adequately equipped for the BMAT and for the academic demands of the course, and if Biology, Physics or Mathematics have not been taken to A-level (or equivalent), applicants will need to have received a basic education in those subjects (for example at least a grade C/4 at GCSE, Intermediate 2 or Standard grade (Credit) or equivalent; the GCSE Dual Award Combined Sciences is also appropriate).

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/medicine

And I find it shocking that an employer is wilfully discriminating against potential employees based on inaccurate and biased judgement as opposed to factual knowledge and I hope a future candidate raises their own ‘judicial review’ against the OP’s company for such practices.

"wilfully discriminating" 🤨

@cantkeepawayforever

It’s probably worth saying that the Combined Science content, in the new curriculum, is actually very close to the old Triple content - so the gap to A level is much smaller than it used to be. Dd did Combined, got 99 and went on to far exceed the marks of many of her triple-taking classmates at A level. There was a single unit in Y13 (none in Y12) where she had not covered required GCSE content that was covered in triple, and the school taught it again anyway as the triple - takers had forgotten it....

She started at Oxbridge last week. No issues at all with ‘only’ taking double Science at GCSE - all thr admissions tutors said that ot was always grades, not numbers, they would look at - so 99 much better than 887, for example.

Understood, thanks

Without knowing the difficulty of the tests it's impossible to correlate that to an actual mark. 80% could be a Grade 8 or it could be a Grade 5. Which is why schools usually use previous full exam papers as marks where the grade boundaries have been moderated and published.

Combined sciences at gcse will still give a "broad enough" view for an all rounder who doesn't choose to go on to do A level sciences but is still sufficiently broad to allow him to do A level too. The A levels will be the basis of which he will move on to uni. And if he goes to Oxbridge even then the gcses are looked at in the context of the school at which they are taken. So better to get a good grade in combined rather than less good in separate or triple.

There may be other battles worthy of taking up against the school later such as whether certain A level combinations or predicted grades aren't as he would hope. I would say like anything it is a case of pick your battles and this may be one that can be opted out of.

The reason I asked about the differential in performance was to get a sense from the school's point of view as to chance of recovery/understanding what has gone awry.

If "normal" performance is at 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to say 70% the school may agree - yes he had an off day, or having looked at the paper in more detail he misread a question etc - so opportunity for recovering ground in triple is reasonable

If "normal" is 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to 50% - the school may be looking at the paper and seeing significant errors, misunderstandings across many more questions and then would reasonably take a different view as to chances of recovery.

@LisaRear

Just received a call from a senior partner in education law. Various options including taking LA to Judicial Review.

Really? you really want to have this beef with the school? good luck with that!

You keep insulting posters, OP. You don't like to be advised, it would appear. You're that parent, aren't you? . Selective school you say? It's not that much of a biggie ( going to a selective).

Combined Science can be an issue - some colleges and school sixth forms expect students to have single science background and although they might say its fine the teachers expect that prior knowledge therefore there is a gap in learning. I think that is a fault of those colleges and sixth forms but some teachers make the assumption. I would challenge this action by the school as this was not what your son signed up for - the school should have a back up plan to support students who struggled with the pandemic not seek a seemingly easy way out

@myrtleWilson

The reason I asked about the differential in performance was to get a sense from the school's point of view as to chance of recovery/understanding what has gone awry.

If "normal" performance is at 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to say 70% the school may agree - yes he had an off day, or having looked at the paper in more detail he misread a question etc - so opportunity for recovering ground in triple is reasonable

If "normal" is 80% and this summer's test has dropped him to 50% - the school may be looking at the paper and seeing significant errors, misunderstandings across many more questions and then would reasonably take a different view as to chances of recovery.

Yes, thats understandable.

However what is probably more likely is that the normal tests were end of topic tests differentiated according to ability (so foundation students would be given easier questions than higher students). End of topic tests are generally a lot easier and a high mark would generally be expected.

The school then more than likely gave a test more akin to a mock. Some exam boards publish tests that can be used or you can use past papers. These test students understanding a retention of information across the entire syllabus. A lower percentage mark would be expected.

So in a way it's like comparing apples with pears.

The OP has no way of knowing which approach has been taken unless she/he approaches the school and asks about the content of the tests and how they were marked.

@KaptainKaveman I was being intentionally vague