Attending a Catholic School as a non-practicing Catholic

[KateBlush]

My DD is highly likely to be allocated a place a Catholic Girls School tomorrow. I'm interested in what her day-to-day experience might be like for non-practicing pupil.

From school visits and communication coming out of the school, its catholic culture seems pretty all-pervading. DH is catholic (I'm Anglican) and our children are baptised catholic, but religion is not part of our daily lives and if pushed, we both feel pretty negative about the church. It's an 'outstanding' school and academically very strong. It's also unapologetically old-fashioned - combined with the faith factor this worries me a bit - might this be a potentially stifling environment for a non-catholic?

Do any of you have children at faith schools where the faith is not a determining factor for you - how do your children fare? Do they feel excluded in any way? Does it feature in every part of their school experience? Thank you.

Also, the faith schools that aren’t over subscribed will admit anyone regardless of their faith. You could get a place just because you happen to live nearby (as was the case when I went to school).

Yes and I have said, a place that is gained in a fair and honest way is absolutely fine, I have zero problems with it. I took issue with you pretending to be Catholic to cheat other kids out of school places.

You still don’t seem to be able to grasp the problem. I am very opposed to religious schools (for numerous reasons stated) but I’m going out of my way to send my child to one BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE ISN’T AS GOOD.

I grasp this entirely, but it is extremely contradictory. The ‘system’ is the way you describe because of people like you - if people didn’t keep lying to get their intelligent kids into Catholic schools, they wouldn’t be known as great schools with clever pupils, and the cycle would be broken. You are the cause of your own problem there.

Also, I would say at least 50% (probably a lot more) of the other parents hoping to send their kids to the good school have faked their religious belief. They have all had their kids baptised in the last year and all started attending the same church exactly 12 months before admissions opened. It was a running joke. There really are not many Christians left out there who are doing this legitimately. You’re a dying breed.

If 50% of people were claiming benefits fraudulently would you see that as justification as well?

@Lockandtees

“If 50% of people were claiming benefits fraudulently would you see that as justification as well?” No, that would be illegal *@wondermule*.

You blame people lying to get into the school for the existence of the two tier system where faith schools perform better. That’s clearly not the root of the problem. The problem is caused by allowed state funded schools to be selective about who they admit. The problem isn’t fixed by intelligent, middle class people deciding not to play the game and instead send their kids to the less good alternative school. The system is fixed by scrapping selective state funded schools and letting any kid go to any school. Just like anyone can currently go to any hospital and we don’t turn people away from A&E for having no baptism certificate.

...which is the exact opposite of what you’ve done.

‘I voted for the face eating leopard party, but I never thought the leopards would eat MY face!!’

Honestly the lack of self awareness is really something to behold. I can’t even put it into words. Basically you want other people to start sending their kids to worse schools to break the cycle people like you have created.

There are no words. Just no words. Have a nice day.

@Lockandtees

The system is fixed by scrapping selective state funded schools and letting any kid go to any school.

^you said this.

Lets say this happens. If any kid can go to any school, then most parents would choose the one closest to them.

So then the ‘good’ schools are the ones in posher areas, and hence the postcode cheating starts. Same problem.

Whereas with religious criteria properly adhered to, you’re more likely to get a mix of intelligent/average/below average pupils, as Catholics (or people from any religious group, or atheists) are not inherently intelligent just because they’re Catholics. You would be sorting kids according to effectively a random common element, which has nothing to do with the value of your house, how clever they are etc.

So what you’re suggesting would not work, whereas adhering to religious entry criteria would. Therefore you are the one creating these issues.

Catholic Girls school near me has specific uniform policy for Sikh and Muslim headscarves

I have no religious faith and I work in a Catholic high school. Many staff members also have no religious affiliation. School has a full time chaplain and a little chapel. All pupils take GCSE RE. Prayers at the beginning of every day and regular religious assemblies, Mass and religious celebrations. There are also rules about teaching of sex Ed, particularly contraception and our school nurses don't supply condoms (which are available in other schools) Our school is much more ethnically diverse than other local schools due to the prevalence of Catholicism in parts of Africa and Eastern Europe. Pastoral care is central to the school and very strong. Most pupils I come across are not practicing Catholics, though many are baptised Catholic. We also have a number of Muslim and Sikh pupils who are very welcomed into the school community (and expected to participate in assemblies and Mass) Happy to answer any questions from a staff pov.

it becomes acceptable to lie and cheat, at the expense of others.

@Wondermule, there is a reason so many people (not me by the way) feel comfortable standing in front of a priest and telling him that they believe something they don't believe as part of a baptism ceremony. It is because they spend their entire childhood doing exactly that at school where they are forced to pretend to pray and sing hymns with words they don't believe. If they keep their mouths shut or their eyes open they are routinely punished. So it's no surprise that people who are trained from a young age to lie routinely for an easy life don't blink at doing the same thing at their weddings (so they can get married at a particular church), at Christmas/Easter services (because it's a nice tradition), at their relatives' funerals (because it would be rude not to) and, yes, also at their children's baptisms ... sometimes to please the family and sometimes to give their child the same priority as other Catholics in school admissions. The church reaps what it sows.

On the other hand, the Church of England doesn't tend to use baptism as a criteria for school admissions, because they don't want the sacrament to be used in that way. Instead, they use church attendance. If a non-religious person goes to church the required number of times, it's perfectly possible for them to apply for a place at a CE school without lying. They have met the criteria like anybody else. There is no sign on the church door saying non-believers can't enter - in fact many churches like having their congregations swelled by young families, especially if they contribute to church funds while they're there.

[quote Lockandtees]And how are you going to make sure people “properly adhere to” the faith school admissions? You can’t. There will always be better schools and people will always cheat the system whether that’s pretending to be religious or using their financial advantage to move into a good catchment area.

There is so much evidence out there to support my view that faith schools are inherently unfair. I suggest you do some reading. This is a good place to start:

humanism.org.uk/education/education-policy/faith-schools-why-not/[/quote]
Of course you can. For example, the kids that suddenly start attending church a year before admissions are very suspect. Plus an obligation for kids to go through their sacraments to stay at the school. Late baptisms also suspect. Catholics generally baptise very young, my child was nearly 3 months old and that was ‘late’. I was baptised at a few weeks old.

Then you have schools of kids whose parents have likeminded ideals, who are more likely to socialise together outside school and be part of a community.

Same for atheists, win-win.

‘Read about why faith schools are unfair!’ Says the person who pretended to be religious to get their kids into a faith school 🙄 they are unfair because you are making them unfair!!! How many times!!! Leopard. Eating. Face. Party 🐆

I can see Wondermule's point to a degree, though in my experience it is more likely to be the honest non religious applicant who loses out to the "fake" religious applicant than the genuinely practicing families. I'm sure the schools/Churches know what's going on too, but it's impossible to prove.
People tell all kinds of lies to try to get their children into particular schools, but things like giving a fake address are comparatively easy to uncover. How can you say whether something as intangible as faith is genuine? I don't suppose anyone really believes that families "coincidentally" find faith just as school applications require it and then lose it again once places are allocated but if parents are willing to profess a faith and make promises that they don't believe it's impossible to prove otherwise.
Allocating places this way is fundamentally unfair in a number of ways, but the real underlying problem is the vast variation in educational provision across the country. If there was a more uniform standard then people wouldn't feel the need to lie to get their children into any school, religious orcotherwise and we wouldn't see the anguish that many people are expressing today. But that idea probably is completely in the realms of fantasy!

@MrsAvocet

I can see Wondermule's point to a degree, though in my experience it is more likely to be the honest non religious applicant who loses out to the "fake" religious applicant than the genuinely practicing families. I'm sure the schools/Churches know what's going on too, but it's impossible to prove. People tell all kinds of lies to try to get their children into particular schools, but things like giving a fake address are comparatively easy to uncover. How can you say whether something as intangible as faith is genuine? I don't suppose anyone really believes that families "coincidentally" find faith just as school applications require it and then lose it again once places are allocated but if parents are willing to profess a faith and make promises that they don't believe it's impossible to prove otherwise. Allocating places this way is fundamentally unfair in a number of ways, but the real underlying problem is the vast variation in educational provision across the country. If there was a more uniform standard then people wouldn't feel the need to lie to get their children into any school, religious orcotherwise and we wouldn't see the anguish that many people are expressing today. But that idea probably is completely in the realms of fantasy!

Well being a Catholic I would say it’s easy to spot!

1. The people that baptise very late, and usually all the siblings in one go. Catholics baptise ASAP after birth - non-Catholics generally wouldn’t pick up on this as they haven’t thought about schools at that point
2. People that suddenly start attending church the year before applications
3. People who want their kids baptised even though they’re not baptised themselves
4. People that look like a fish out of water at Mass because they don’t know the order
5. Making the sacraments a necessity to stay at the school. They’re quite ‘hardcore’ commitments and I doubt people would want their kids to go through them all just for a school

Not foolproof of course, but it would be a tight net to slip through.

If anyone has any better ideas about how to make school admissions completely fair, I am all ears.

How can you say whether something as intangible as faith is genuine?

That's why it's not used as an admissions criterion - only objective things like possession of a baptism certificate or a signed letter confirming church attendance can be used. If lying occurs it is to the priest not the school, and as previously noted many people don't blink at lying to priests.

The school we have applied to requires 12 months church attendance AND. Baptism certificate

Bad luck Lockandtees. Our local diocese doesn't use baptism.

Actually, double bad luck because the national advice from the Church of England is that their schools shouldn't select by faith criteria at all. Of course many still do.

@Wondermule if you really could see into people's minds and stop non-believers going to church, they would be much emptier places. Of course school admissions isn't the only reason non-believers attend church and take the sacraments. Many do it to be part of a community, to carry on family traditions, to find comfort, to enjoy the music, etc etc. Would you stop those people going too? And what about the people who spend their whole time at church looking round at their fellow congregation members and judging them ... are they really committed enough to qualify for a school place?

@Lockandtees

It’s not just catholic schools that require a baptism certificate. The school we have applied to requires 12 months church attendance AND. Baptism certificate.

@Wondermule if you want to tighten up the criteria to spot the parents who only started attending at 12 months prior to admissions opening then all of those parents will start attending 24 months in advance instead. There is literally no way you can stop people from playing a system based on claiming to believe something. It’s all just words.

They should be attending mass for years before their kids are even born. It’s easy to put priests in touch with other priests to confirm your attendance. A bit like a trail of addresses you have to provide when applying for loans.

Some people will always go to extreme measures and keep up pretences for 20 years if they have to. But it would put most of the cheats off I think.

[quote ScrabbleOriginal]@Wondermule if you really could see into people's minds and stop non-believers going to church, they would be much emptier places. Of course school admissions isn't the only reason non-believers attend church and take the sacraments. Many do it to be part of a community, to carry on family traditions, to find comfort, to enjoy the music, etc etc. Would you stop those people going too? And what about the people who spend their whole time at church looking round at their fellow congregation members and judging them ... are they really committed enough to qualify for a school place?[/quote]
Well no because a) it’s impossible and b) they actually give back to, and are part, of the community. Application cheats do not.

12 months of attendance.

Every Sunday we attended Mass from when we were baptised. We were baptised at 2 months old. My own dd's we're 3 months and 2 months old when they were baptised.
Then we attended every Sunday until we left school.
I've done the same with my dd's.

@Lockandtees

*“They should be attending mass for years before their kids are even born. It’s easy to put priests in touch with other priests to confirm your attendance. A bit like a trail of addresses you have to provide when applying for loans.

Some people will always go to extreme measures and keep up pretences for 20 years if they have to. But it would put most of the cheats off I think.”*

You’re off your rocker @Wondermule. Honestly, you would have class sizes that were just not sustainable if you only want hardcore believers in your state schools. Your posts are getting crazier and crazier.

Off my rocker for wanting to stop people cheating the system 🙄 this would not be a difficult criteria for a practising Catholic to fulfil, as @ParkheadParadise demonstrates. But of course you wouldn’t know that... not being religious and all...

This has actually inspired me to create a new thread, I don’t think it has really been discussed on here that I have seen?

They should be attending mass for years before their kids are even born. It’s easy to put priests in touch with other priests to confirm your attendance. A bit like a trail of addresses you have to provide when applying for loans

The most oversubscribed Catholic schools already require several years' attendance.

On the other hand, local communities know full well which priests are likely to have a lenient interpretation of the rules and which ones aren't. There is a lot of room for corruption.

A priest local to us happily signed a friend's form knowing they didn't have a full attendance record. That's because his church didn't have an attached school and he was pissed off that the church down the road (next to the school) was always full and his wasn't. He thought the admissions system was a sham and should be abolished. Another priest, in a neighbouring area, was of the same opinion but reacted by not refusing to sign anyone's form on the grounds that their attendance wasn't recorded - he ended up getting sued. :-)