Attending a Catholic School as a non-practicing Catholic

[KateBlush]

My DD is highly likely to be allocated a place a Catholic Girls School tomorrow. I'm interested in what her day-to-day experience might be like for non-practicing pupil.

From school visits and communication coming out of the school, its catholic culture seems pretty all-pervading. DH is catholic (I'm Anglican) and our children are baptised catholic, but religion is not part of our daily lives and if pushed, we both feel pretty negative about the church. It's an 'outstanding' school and academically very strong. It's also unapologetically old-fashioned - combined with the faith factor this worries me a bit - might this be a potentially stifling environment for a non-catholic?

Do any of you have children at faith schools where the faith is not a determining factor for you - how do your children fare? Do they feel excluded in any way? Does it feature in every part of their school experience? Thank you.

Cross post @ScrabbleOriginal

So what place has your dd been allocated then op??

The lack of teaching about contraception in sex education is worth planning for.

We'll find out later today...

@scrabbleOriginal and @ChildofFriday you understand our predicament entirely!

@ISBN111

So what place has your dd been allocated then op??

The lack of teaching about contraception in sex education is worth planning for.

Hopefully the new mandatory PSHE requirements will help: www.pshe-association.org.uk/news/key-questions-mandatory-pshe-requirements-health

@ChildOfFriday

Of course, but baptising your child Catholic, applying for a Catholic school and then worrying about the Catholic aspect just seems very counterintuitive.

I’m a Catholic, went to Catholic school, my child is baptised because I would like them to complete their sacraments and be part of the church community. Just seems like Op is playing the system a bit.

For what it’s worth, at my school, the Catholic kids had a stronger bond with each other than the non Catholics. Just because their parents tended to be friends, go to Church together, Sunday school, confirmation classes etc. I don’t think the non catholics felt really really left out, but there was a distinction there.

I went to a Catholic school.
Both my dd's were baptised in the Catholic faith and also attended Catholic school.
I don't remember any pupils who were not practising Catholics in my class.
I remember we prayed a lot also had visits from the priest and the nuns🤪

Personally, I've never understood why you would attend a Catholic school if you were not a Catholic.

I can see what you're saying, but the reason you might apply to (not necessarily choose, as we can only give preferences) a Catholic school is because it may be a better school than your other options, and you decide that you would prefer to have this, despite the religious aspect that you may not be entirely happy with, than the other options, on balance. No school is going to be perfect, and it's all about weighing up the strengths and weaknesses of each school for you, especially as, as I said above, in some areas you may have 6 spaces on your application form, and it is always advisable to fill them all.

I'm not sure I'd say the OP has played the system- I'm on the app so can't scroll back to the first post without losing what I've written but I think she said that she is a Catholic (albeit not practising) and her DC are baptised (apologies if that's not correct). From what I've seen of admission policies, many Catholic school admission criteria simply have baptised Catholic children in a higher bracket than non-Catholics, with no mention of church attendance. I assume that they could change this if they wanted to, as I've seen some C of E schools use church attendance in their admissions criteria, so if the school aren't discriminating between practising and non practising Catholics I don't think it's fair to say the OP is playing the system. Lying about how you meet the admissions criteria would be completely different, of course.

I attended a convent grammar school in the 90s, was baptised a Catholic but no confirmation and no church attendance. It was fine, overall, but mass was really boring! Compulsory RE gcse, and obviously a catholic approach to sex ed.

If anything it affirmed my atheism, but I was sensible enough not to let that show!

I don’t think it’s lying per se, but I would hazard a guess she baptised her children for this reason. Basically it sounds like Op has been a bit disingenuous with the Catholic Church to suit herself. If you’re not a Catholic I can understand why you don’t find that a big deal, but it is a bit annoying for Catholic parents who genuinely want their child to contribute to religious life at the school may not get a places

Personally, I've never understood why you would attend a Catholic school if you were not a Catholic.

The reasons are many, and individual. People often explain their reasons here on Mumsnet, yet people who don't want to understand still say they don't understand.

In my case, back in the eighties, I had a choice between an ok comprehensive and the all-girls Catholic school, which had a handful of places left over for non-Catholics. They filled their spare places by academic selection and by interviewing parents to make sure we were suitable. I liked the idea of going to what I saw as a 'posh' girls' school with a smart uniform and it helped that a few Catholic friends from my neighbourhood were going. My mind was fully made up when a friend's older sister who already attended the RC school told me that it had individual shower cubicles in the PE block rather than communal showers (one of my biggest fears about secondary school! ).

@Lockandtees

Unfortunately catholic schools tend to be the best performing schools in England (not because of the religious ethos but because they are selective about who they accept and the educated, middle class families tend to be the ones who play the game). For that reason I can’t blame you for applying. I’m an atheist and have done the same with primary admissions - pretending to go to church etc etc. You will probably find that most of the other kids are also not religious, even if their parents are.

I went to a CofE school and from reception onwards I used to just roll my eyes whenever the attempted brainwashing occurred. I changed the words in hymns and refused to say the Lord’s Prayer every morning.

Your kids will be fine so long as they are taught fact and not fiction at home.

Yeah, as long as you’re all right, eh? Just pretend to be religious to get into the school, then spoil it for everyone else by being churlish and rude about their faith. Unbelievably entitled.

We're kind of the opposite. My DH and DC's are practising Catholics (I'm not) but the children went to a Cof E Primary school and a non denominational Secondary. Having been brought up in a denomination that doesn't have schools I am firmly of the opinion that religion is a matter for the family /place of worship and schools are for general education. The RC schools in our area are ok, but there are much better schools locally and I wasn't prepared to jeopardise my children's education by opting for a less good school on a religious basis.
When my DH and his siblings were at school they were taught by priests and nuns, did Confirmation classes etc as a compulsory part of the curriculum so my in laws were horrified that our children weren't going and would be excluded from the Church community as a result. But thise days are gone. First Communion and Confirmation classes are completely independent of school and are voluntary. Our local Catholic secondary school accepts children of all faiths or none and as far as I can tell the curriculum is not significantly different to that of other schools. One of my ex colleagues who is a fairly strict Muslim was happy to send his children there so I presume the religious element of the curriculum is not terribly strong. Obviously it will vary from place to place, but it's certainly no longer the case that all Catholic schools have a religion heavy approach.

[quote Lockandtees]@Wondermule the issue isn’t with parents pretending to be religious to get their kids into the best schools. The issue is with our government continuing to fund a system that segregates children based on the religion of their parents. That forces non religious kids to go to the not so good schools. It’s discrimination, plain and simple.

The UK is a secular country with more people identifying as having no religion than those identifying as having a religion. Yet the government is still opening faith schools that are allowed to be 100% selective. Yet we are the only country, other than Iran, that has religious ministers in government.[/quote]
They’re religious schools because the Church contributes to funding them. And you know where that money comes from? Catholics up and down the country, who put their hand in their pocket to pay for such schools to keep going, in the hope their kids will be able to go there.

But sadly the money went to you, someone who can’t even be respectful of their faith.

Catholic schools make up 10% of schools, I’m sure if you had been that averse to religion you could’ve sent your kids to a non religious one. But you went ahead and did it because it suited you, and now you’re complaining about it.

Absolutely nothing to be proud of and very very selfish.

My DC go to a Catholic school. It was a very difficult decision as I fundamentally disagree with the Catholic church on a number of issues, and we are not Catholic. However it was the best school for them, and Cathloic children are only about 50% of the school. So far the Cathlocity seems to be mostly huge amounts of history of the Catholic church and faith rather than any Catholic teaching on day to day living. I am very much hoping that the new RSE curriculum will dial down the influence that the religious aspect can have in the teaching, but if it doesn't, I am fully prepared to present my different viewpoint with my children.

@Wondermule

I don’t think it’s lying per se, but I would hazard a guess she baptised her children for this reason. Basically it sounds like Op has been a bit disingenuous with the Catholic Church to suit herself. If you’re not a Catholic I can understand why you don’t find that a big deal, but it is a bit annoying for Catholic parents who genuinely want their child to contribute to religious life at the school may not get a places

Wow! Quite an assumption there @Wondermule.

I'm not playing the system. If we're offered a place it's because my DD has a certificate of baptism (she was baptised as a baby - we had no idea about this school's existence or where we'd be living in 11 years time) and that, coupled with our close proximity to the school, satisfies a reasonably high criterion for admission. The school doesn't require you to prove you are practicing Catholics.

We've included the school on our application form, as several others have already suggested, not because we actively want it, but because it offers us the best worst outcome. As I mentioned before, every secondary in our locality is oversubscribed, so there's a distinct possibility of being allocated of a school a huge distance away.

My original post is just trying to understand how a non-practicing child might feel day-to-day at a faith school. If there are many other pupils who are baptised, but do not actively worship, maybe DD won't feel quite so different?

@Wondermule

I don’t think it’s lying per se, but I would hazard a guess she baptised her children for this reason. Basically it sounds like Op has been a bit disingenuous with the Catholic Church to suit herself. If you’re not a Catholic I can understand why you don’t find that a big deal, but it is a bit annoying for Catholic parents who genuinely want their child to contribute to religious life at the school may not get a places

You could also say that it's unfair for some children to miss out on a place at a better school (not saying all Catholic/church schools are necessarily better, but that seems to be the case here) just because of the religion of their parents though. There are several ways of looking at it, but I honestly can't see it as lying or selfish. If you think it's the best school with the options you have for your kids and you can get a place (and some Catholic schools will have non-Catholic children there because they have places remaining after allocating to all the Catholic children who applied, so these parents wouldn't have baptised to 'play the system'), I can't judge anyone for that.

@ChildOfFriday well you wouldn’t, would you, you’re clearly very selfish people and ‘Me, myself and I’ is justification enough for people that are selfish.

The fact you’re happy to lie to play the system, deprive a genuine Catholic of a school place but happily let their parents pay for your kids, before taking the piss out of their faith, doesn’t make you some kind of super parent. It makes you very unpleasant and self serving.

Our DC went to catholic schools. We are non practising. Simply, the secondary produced the best GCSE results in the area by far.
And so it turned out for DC1. He did fantastically well, DC2 set to follow suit. They just zoned out for the RE stuff. Loads were non practising anyway.
Of course it's hypocritical, but their exam results are more important than my morals.

I don’t have an issue with non catholics sending their kids to Catholic school in a fair and honest way, it’s when they lie about practising and cheat a real Catholic out of a place that I take an issue with it.

They’re religious schools because the Church contributes to funding them. And you know where that money comes from? Catholics up and down the country, who put their hand in their pocket to pay for such schools to keep going, in the hope their kids will be able to go there.

@Wondermule you are being unfair here and are deluded about how Voluntary Aided schools are funded. The "church" pays only 10% of the capital costs, not the running costs. That's a very small amount of money, working out at no more than about £30 per child per year. However I put "church" in inverted commas because in reality this money is raised from parents at the schools in the form of an annual "voluntary" contribution. That includes the non-Catholic parents at the school. I put "voluntary" in inverted commas because often it feels anything but.

Oh, and the new wave of faith academies don't require any contribution at all. Catholic schools that convert to academy status can keep their selective admissions policies but no longer need to make the 10% contributions to capital costs.

@ScrabbleOriginal

They’re religious schools because the Church contributes to funding them. And you know where that money comes from? Catholics up and down the country, who put their hand in their pocket to pay for such schools to keep going, in the hope their kids will be able to go there.

@Wondermule you are being unfair here and are deluded about how Voluntary Aided schools are funded. The "church" pays only 10% of the capital costs, not the running costs. That's a very small amount of money, working out at no more than about £30 per child per year. However I put "church" in inverted commas because in reality this money is raised from parents at the schools in the form of an annual "voluntary" contribution. That includes the non-Catholic parents at the school. I put "voluntary" in inverted commas because often it feels anything but.

Oh, and the new wave of faith academies don't require any contribution at all. Catholic schools that convert to academy status can keep their selective admissions policies but no longer need to make the 10% contributions to capital costs.

The school buildings and land of Catholic schools are owned by the Catholic Church. The Church provides these premises, at no charge, to enable the state to fulfil its obligation to provide education for the population. The day to day running costs of Catholic schools are funded by the state in the same way that all schools are funded (either through local authority or DfE funding agreements). The Church covers 10% of the capital costs for the maintenance of the premises in all voluntary aided schools. Through this arrangement the Catholic Church saves the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds a year.

So, a little more than you made out.

It doesn’t matter how you slice and dice it - pretending to be a Catholic when you’re not, and depriving a Catholic child of a school place which would mean more to them, is wrong and very dishonest.

I have no problems where parents are honest about not practising and the school takes their child anyway.

But lying is very dishonourable and entitled.

[quote Wondermule]@ChildOfFriday well you wouldn’t, would you, you’re clearly very selfish people and ‘Me, myself and I’ is justification enough for people that are selfish.

The fact you’re happy to lie to play the system, deprive a genuine Catholic of a school place but happily let their parents pay for your kids, before taking the piss out of their faith, doesn’t make you some kind of super parent. It makes you very unpleasant and self serving.[/quote]
No, and you clearly 'wouldn't' see my point of view either. I can't believe how rude you're being. I have been discussing this politely and calmly and you've just attacked me and called me selfish You're clearly not willing to accept any view except your own and attacking and being incredibly rude to anyone who disagrees with you, no matter how polite they are. I've tried to be careful not to offend anyone but I don't know why I bothered tbh

No, I don't judge someone for trying to get their child a place at the best school they can for them, as long as they do not lie and it is within the rules. Lying about your child being baptised or about your church attendance (if that it in the school admission criteria) would be a different matter, but that's not what the OP is doing. That's my opinion and I feel I should be able to state it politely on this forum without being attacked tbh.

[quote Wondermule]@ChildOfFriday well you wouldn’t, would you, you’re clearly very selfish people and ‘Me, myself and I’ is justification enough for people that are selfish.

The fact you’re happy to lie to play the system, deprive a genuine Catholic of a school place but happily let their parents pay for your kids, before taking the piss out of their faith, doesn’t make you some kind of super parent. It makes you very unpleasant and self serving.[/quote]
I also didn't say anything about lying, in fact I said that lying would be a different matter.