I need to talk really frankly about money and fees for private secondary

[EmbMonStu]

I’d like to apologise at the outset for speaking so gauchely and brashly about money, and for referencing large amounts of money when some people are going through such an awful time. I have literally no one to discuss this with because who can you talk actual amounts with IRL?

Also, I recognise my privilege, we are extremely lucky, my kids will be fine whatever we do and I’m aware this is not a real “problem”.

DH and I both from very working class backgrounds, first in family to Uni etc. I am trying to figure out whether private secondary will be an option for us financially. I’m looking at Hampton School as an example.

DS1 (very very bright and sporty) is in year 4. By the time he enters secondary school we should, in theory and assuming nothing changes have about £85k in the bank and another 25k in “really mustn’t touch it but can break glass if true emergency” money. This will come incrementally from savings rather than a lump sum.

We will be saving around £25k a year from salaries at this point also.

I estimate fees, lunches and transport to a secondary school like Hampton will cost around 25k a year. So essentially, we will be saving nothing.

We will still be able to spend around 12k a year on holidays, have lots of fun money etc, private health insurance etc. We certainly won’t be scrimping, but will be saving very little, perhaps 4-500 a month.

DS2 is four years behind DS1 so would start in 2027. At this point DH should be earning considerably more than he does now and fees will be less of a concern.

If he dies or other disaster strikes we will have to pull the children out and sell house anyway, life insurance not withstanding.

So basically, is this enough? Would you spend all the money you would otherwise save, on fees? Leaving you with a nest egg of this amount? If you could still a nice lifestyle?

Also we live in a semi detached in a fairly nice area, but I wouldn’t want to be a poor relation in the school. We wouldn’t probably be able to move if committed to fees, although very happy in the house currently.

Thanks if you’ve got this far. This is all very alien to me and I feel I need a steer!

If you're not from a private school background it is very easy to not realise that some private schools are, for want of a better word, shit. My parents scrimped and saved to send me to a private school on a 50% academic scholarship (honestly the fact that I was even offered one should have been a warning sign) and it was seriously bad. The marketing placed a lot of emphasis on it being a nice, supportive environment which for some reason seemed to encourage parents of kids with behavioural difficulties to send them there; unfortunately the nice supportive ethos manifested as the rest of us being told we had to put up with being bullied because those kids had a lot of difficulties at home. Academic expectations were "try not to throw furniture in lessons". If my parents hadn't worked out what was going on and got me out of there in year 9 I'm convinced I would never have made it to university - as far as I can tell the very few who did went to agricultural college, the better to understand how to manage the family land.

Probably I had an unusually bad experience, but I'm just saying be careful.

@WombatChocolate

Sorry. The grades alone at GCSE don’t necessarily reflect the ability in Maths. Experienced teachers can tel if someone has got the ability to do well at Maths (get a B or above) or if they would be better doing something else and that would probably get them the higher grade.

I suppose you could say the child should be able to choose and so what if they don’t get a B and it’s all just about league tables. On one level that’s true, but on another it is about the kids too....if they really will get a C or D atA Level maths, when if they chose Geography, they could get an A or B, isn’t it better to tell them that and push in that direction? I know people differ i their view.

My DS is a case in point. Not a natural mathematician by any means but managed to get an 8 at GCSE. Was tracking for a 7 in a low set and knew himself and the teachers knew he wasn’t A Level maths material. That was fine as he didn’t want to do it anyway. He knew he had always found it quite hard and had to work hard to do okay. In the end, with a following wind and hard work he actually got the 8 and met the criteria for doing Maths A Level. But did that change his natural ability as a a mathematician? No it didn’t. In the school he went to, he probably could have really pushed to do it against teacher advice and been allowed, but it wouldn’t have been to his advantage. He would have had a horrible 2 years as it would have been beyond him and he might have got a C at very best. By playing to his strengths, he actually got 2 A* and an A at A Level. Yes, the school has better results for their league tables, but he benefitted too. Too many schools let students whose likely outcomes at Maths A Levels take it. Too many parents and children don’t realise the likely outcomes from 6s and 7s at GCSE or that even with 7s and 8s sometimes students don’t have the ability in the subject....and lots of schools just don’t tell them either.

Agree with this. Dds school has always been frank about A level choices.

Not being able to do maths a level may affect what degree and career you end up with. I guess some parents think it’s ok if their son ends up thinking they’re bad at maths and not doing a level maths, even if they’re predicted, and get, a 9 in GCSE. That’s fine.

If my son was capable of getting a 9, I’d rather he had the option of a level maths and therefore all the uni courses that perhaps don’t focus on maths but requires a level.

Btw we loved Hampton and seriously considered their offer but went with Tiffin mostly for money reasons

On broader private v state we’ve used both and now considering options for 11plus

Lucky to have excellent state but also selective academic school could be good fit for dc2

Yes, it’s true that not having Maths at A Level closes some doors at uni. It’s a fair point. You wouldn’t be able to apply for Economics at the vast majority of places without it and there are other subjects that require it too. But those are courses where there will be a high degree of maths in them, so not really being skilled in that area, should make people think twice about whether they really are the uni courses for them.

Economics for example, isn’t very maths based at A Level. You’d be fine doing it without maths. But at Uni, it is very different, and I think that it wouldn’t just be about having done maths to scrape some kind of pass to meet the entry requirement, but actually being good at maths would be essential to doing well on the degree. There is a reason why it is required...and for competitive courses, that means a strong A Level, it just a low pass.

And I think it’s quite tough to automatically exclude all students from sets 3 downwards regardless of GCSE grades. I can see that for most in set 3 down, even with a grade 8, they probably aren’t natural mathematicians.

Shouldn’t it be on a case by case basis ...based on BOTH GCSE result and teacher recommendation. The trouble is, parents and sometimes children do t value the teacher recommendation and decide if a 7 or 8 has been achieved, the child must be up to A Level maths, when sometimes they really aren’t. Whatever policy the school uses, in fee paying schools particularly, they will all ways face push back from parents when the kids have got 7/8 at GCSE and they want their kid to do A Level maths. I suspect that in all cases, in reality, they sometimes will let some students do it if the parents really want it, as it will be hard to resist. They have these policies to send a general message and to keep the numbers in that category low....the pace a class can go with a few weak mathematicians is significantly reduced.

I suppose if you were a natural mathematician and the teacher felt you'd do well at maths a level and you were predicted an 8/9 you'd be in the top two sets!

Yes!

@Frodont

I suppose if you were a natural mathematician and the teacher felt you'd do well at maths a level and you were predicted an 8/9 you'd be in the top two sets!

Is Hampton hard to get in to? Academically?

Eg if I compared two schools we’re going for. One much harder so top to bottom set might differ to other school. Both use ISEB still (atm)

I still think it’s tough that you get a 9 and not proceed. Maybe there are exceptions.
And people seem ok with it on here.

OP is in the position of being able to afford private education, but not wanting to pay at the expense of it impacting on her current lifestyle.

I think this is a very crucial point. Where money is limited, a consideration needs to be made to the best place to spend it. For some, this might be private school. For some it might be holidays, or experiences or tutoring.

How you manage "success" has also come up. Some have suggested that success equates to the best exam results (and whether getting 8/9s at GCSE is really so much more important than getting 6/7s) or the best job. My personal observation (now in my 40s) is that the people who I see living a comfortable, reasonably financially secure life (as in they have enough for their wants without scrimping and saving every penny) have a mixture of school backgrounds. The thing that's made a much bigger difference is financial support through young adult hood - either in supporting postgraduate study, specialist training, supporting financially when starting out in in low paid jobs or internships or providing substantial help towards a house deposit. Basically things that enable choices to be made, because you're not having to spend every penny of your income putting a roof over your head and buying food. So, if money is not so unlimited you can spend on what you want, I see this as a more crucial time to throw money at your children, than by paying for private school. Others, of course will make different choices.

If you got a 9 at dds school then of course they'd consider you for A level maths! They are spot on at predicting grades though, so if you were working at a 7 for 2 years you'd be unlikely to get a 9 without a random flash of luck in the exam.

The poster who said compare the schools you have in front of you rather than comparing private to state is very wise, I think.

But I also think you need to have a long hard think about your motivations for sending them, your post about a lovely life that insulates them from trouble and strife... no school can do that. There will always be obstacles to overcome. The only thing that insulates DCs from that is a stable home life, and even that isn't about insulation, it's about having a soft place to land. Your experiences were hard but they made you you. Your DCs will have other, equally tough, experiences to go through and that's what makes them rounded and resilient people.

(And I'm trying really hard to stay in the spirit, but you'd honestly pay the best part of half a million quid so your DCs don't have to go to school beside a road? C'mon pal... )

I'm glad we did it OP. dd2 came from a decent primary with really average sats. Spent year 7 in the local good comp, absolutely average, not in top set anything. Sent her to very good private. She got good gcses, bit hit the ground running at A level and is predicted AAA* with really good low offers from rg unis in the top 7 for her subject. I am as sure as i can be she wouldn't have done that well if she'd stayed in state. She also sings in two choirs, won a debating competition and plays football three times a week (or did pre covid).

I went to the local state high school, it was fine. I went to uni afterwards and so on. My parents had ordinary jobs but were obviously saving and when I was in my early 20s they bought a small property in Southern Europe that they increasingly spent time in and so did we - holidays, Christmas, etc. I begun to completely master the language and ended up having a brilliant career (not in that country but thanks to being completely fluent in that language). When you spend a lot of time abroad you somehow become classless because you're in a different context and your background is not clear - no discernible accent and different markets in different countries. You often are given the benefit of the doubt...now I can safely say that I can speak to anyone - from all walks of life. My peers that were privately educated on the other hand really struggle to connect with "poor people"...they are not used to this milieu. They have sometimes prejudices...it works both ways I guess. My point is that there are other ways to invest in your children's' lives than private education but of course it depends on your circumstances. My parents did also help with me with a deposit for a flat - I will be forever grateful as that did really make a difference as now I have almost finished paying off my mortgage and am not yet 50.

Just want to add that having a big allowance at uni might make more of a difference because it is at uni that you really begin to discover the world and yourself. Having some cash to go travelling, practise sports etc without having to do shifts down the local boozer to make ends meet might be a better call. I did part time work on and off throughout uni and it was quite distracting.

My peers that were privately educated on the other hand really struggle to connect with "poor people"...they are not used to this milieu

This is a common trope on Mumsnet and really quite offensive to both 'poor' people - who seemingly require a special kind of understanding, and privately educated students - many of which are lovely people who get on with most others.

It's a really interesting discussion, but I think some of the comments about state schools generally are underestimating the selective grammars in London. You say your son is bright, so I would definetly look at those. You won't get the disruptive influence there that you get in non selective schools that others have mentioned. Also I think people are understating their outcomes. I don't know Tiffins, but certainly the north London ones have pretty impressive results with lots of students going on to Oxbridge & Russell Group unis.

But as others have said, look at the options around you. Many kids apply for grammar schools and private schools and make a decision later down the line. I'd say you can definetly afford it if that's the way you choose.

@Frodont you only have to look at senior politicians to see an example of what I am saying...in fact staff of senior politicians actively try to avoid their bosses meeting with anyone other than loyal supporters for this reason.

Of course poor people don't need special understanding - they are just ordinary people. But privately educated people are not in the sense that their parents can find 500k to spend on education. No judgement here from me but most people can't afford that.

How about people who’s parent spend £50000 on their education?
Can they talk to “poor” people?
What about people who got full scholarships? Can they talk to “poor” people?

There is a huge difference between a top a Public school in London or the HC and one in Yorkshire for example, not all Private schools are the same

The not being able to talk to normal people is definitely a thing with some people.

My ex dp was one of these people - very monied background, top prep then public school where he boarded, then Oxbridge then into the City. He really had never mingled much with people who didn’t have a lot of (old) money and it was interesting watching him trying to talk to eg the caretaker or taxi drivers. It was like Mars and Venus trying to communicate

I do also know other very wealthy privately educated people who can talk to a very wide range of people so must also relate to attitude and parenting

it was interesting watching him trying to talk to eg the caretaker or taxi drivers. It was like Mars and Venus trying to communicate

Surely it's fairly straightforward talking to a taxi driver you don't have to be their best friend

As someone who was privately educated and not academic I think the hidden ingredient is confidence and I could always communicate with anyone. DH who went to the local comp and then Oxford and has made the money to afford the dc opportunities did not have a natural confidence in all circles although his stellar brain and legal speciality made that not matter in the longer term but I was the one who gave him the confidence and it is that as well as the academics that make the investment in education worthwhile.

Where my DC differ from him is in the fact that they have much wider choices. For example ds is set on an academic career and can be so because his future financially is secured. In different circumstances he would actively have to chose between that and lifestyle. He certainly isn't a privileged public school boy incapable of empathy. Neither are DH or I.

@Frodont agreed I found it astonishing. It was like he couldn’t make small talk because there was no common reference point

@Hoppinggreen very good point. Yes true there is a big difference