I need to talk really frankly about money and fees for private secondary

[EmbMonStu]

I’d like to apologise at the outset for speaking so gauchely and brashly about money, and for referencing large amounts of money when some people are going through such an awful time. I have literally no one to discuss this with because who can you talk actual amounts with IRL?

Also, I recognise my privilege, we are extremely lucky, my kids will be fine whatever we do and I’m aware this is not a real “problem”.

DH and I both from very working class backgrounds, first in family to Uni etc. I am trying to figure out whether private secondary will be an option for us financially. I’m looking at Hampton School as an example.

DS1 (very very bright and sporty) is in year 4. By the time he enters secondary school we should, in theory and assuming nothing changes have about £85k in the bank and another 25k in “really mustn’t touch it but can break glass if true emergency” money. This will come incrementally from savings rather than a lump sum.

We will be saving around £25k a year from salaries at this point also.

I estimate fees, lunches and transport to a secondary school like Hampton will cost around 25k a year. So essentially, we will be saving nothing.

We will still be able to spend around 12k a year on holidays, have lots of fun money etc, private health insurance etc. We certainly won’t be scrimping, but will be saving very little, perhaps 4-500 a month.

DS2 is four years behind DS1 so would start in 2027. At this point DH should be earning considerably more than he does now and fees will be less of a concern.

If he dies or other disaster strikes we will have to pull the children out and sell house anyway, life insurance not withstanding.

So basically, is this enough? Would you spend all the money you would otherwise save, on fees? Leaving you with a nest egg of this amount? If you could still a nice lifestyle?

Also we live in a semi detached in a fairly nice area, but I wouldn’t want to be a poor relation in the school. We wouldn’t probably be able to move if committed to fees, although very happy in the house currently.

Thanks if you’ve got this far. This is all very alien to me and I feel I need a steer!

@nitsandwormsdodger or send them to a less academic environment than Hampton, St John's, Emanuel, etc.

I think there are more prestigious schools where you get more bang for your buck but they start at 13. Basically they are slightly easier to get into and not in the London scramble. More expensive though.

So we are currently making huge financial sacrifices for our toddler to have a full time nanny (so we can both keep our full time careers), and we are planning/hoping to send her and her sister (on the way) to private school. It is and will be our biggest outgoing and we wouldn’t do it unless we were absolutely prioritising it as it’s a massive commitment (don’t want to have to pull them out and uproot them later!).
You have more income than we do but yours is more weighted towards your DH. Remember:

• you need at least life insurance and potentially critical illness too for your DH - the kind that would give you 25k annually for as long as your DC need schooling.
• your DH is a partner, and I’m glad all is going well but if his firm does badly, he’ll be the first to take a pay cut. Can you still afford it?
• I am STAGGERED your DH is 40, a lawyer and has no pension. Sort that now!
• your estimation of fees of £25k seems cheap for two kids. I live in an area with pretty cheap private schools and for secondary it’s about £4K a term so £12k, plus I add 10% for uniforms, trips, extracurricular, then also assume it goes up at least 2% (and probably more like 5%) per year. So it’s more like £30k for two than £25k.

My general feeling is you’re a bit on the fence about it and I’d say it’s too important to enter into if it’s not a priority. Your children need stability first.

£25k is fees for one in London, and that's at current rates. They increase annually -usually 5-10%.

And I think that isn't enough for many of the London schools

I'd wait and see how your DH earnings trajectory goes. It sounds fine to me?

I expect London private senior to cost at least £40k rising to 45k a year, plus uni... for 2 kids starting in 5 years time for us. School fees inflate 3-4% a year...

We too have the dilemma. We have more savings but both do not have potential to increase earnings unlike your DH. And we do not have public sector pensions. We will end up drawing down on savings so things will be tight, and I suspect my job wont exist in 10 years... so I'm hesitant.

We plan to try for grammars, some private schools then as last option move to a comp catchment area. Although we are having constant debate when to do so. I'd prefer to go straight to the comp area now but arguably we will pay a premium for a smaller house in an area I dont actually want to be in. Anyone has any ideas how to tackle timings, like is it too late to move just before Year 7?

We have this debate a lot. We have a combined salary of 200k before tax, but have 3 kids close in age. It seems too much of a risk, as we need to save more into our pensions, and can't rely on inheriting as that may all go on care home fees.

But next financial year he should take home about 8k a month plus 10k a year disbursements (all after tax).
I earn 23k/year.

This is approximately £10.5k net monthly income that you anticipate next year and more in the future. I think that you can manage school fees of up to 5/6K pm from income alone should you wish. There is a 4 yr age gap so you won't be paying 2 sets of school fees for the whole period.

@EmbMonStu I did a spreadsheet for my sons 11+ choices this year (sad I know) and worked out that for St. John’s in Leatherhead which is one of our fave schools it will cost us £184,000 if we send him at 11 and 134,000 including transport if we send him at 13. So another option is to send them later. Also Hamptons fees are much less than that, but with the optional extras including lunch, you’ll still be looking at about 8k. It’s worth doing a calculation to see what the final total would be at today’s prices. It’s also quite sobering to see such big sums and will help to cement your commitment or not to the private system . Although to be honest based on what you have said so far, you have more than enough to cover it

Interesting topic, and I, for one, appreciate the candour.

We are in somewhat similar (but not identical situation) with one high earner and a decision to make between a grammar and SW/S London independent this year. DS had a Hampton interview earlier this month. He has SEN, so to date, we had invested ~£140k post-tax in his additional support. There went the house deposit (no regrets!). Additionally, whilst we are not first to go to university from our families, both of us are immigrants with no generational wealth, so the above means we don't significant savings and no meaningful pension accumulated by 40... Having said that, earnings had been on upward trajectory from a decent base for a long time, but are slowing down, and COVID-19 had majorly delayed wealth generation for us once agian (just like GFC did).

I undulate between a selective grammar and an independent several times a day, whilst waiting for the latter offers to arrive in Feb.

I did a spreadsheet for my sons 11+ choices this year (sad I know)

I thought everyone in the respective boys' and girls' thread here has one?

Inflated at 4% pa, Hampton works out at ~£184k inclusive of coach and lunches, but without the extras. So ~£200k post-tax round numbers over seven years.

You can afford it. The question is whether it's what you really want. My DH and I are both state school background now in professions where all our friends and colleagues are private educated and are planning to educate privately. We're not. For a start we can't actually afford it - high prestige industry with relatively low pay, but lots of people in it have family money - but secondly we don't think it would be worth missing out on the broader more comfortable family life. We are in London and state school provision near us is very good. You have to decide if the investment is worth it overall.

I think your expectation of private school equating to happy children with 'ease, comfort and joy' is idealistic at best; naive at worst. As a PP pointed out, certain private schools tip easily into being very competitive and very pressured environments. Our DC are at private school and there is an inherent pressure to do well and attain. If it's a sporty school, there is often additional pressure to excel at sports which leaves out the quirky or bookish DC like your DS2.
You seem to be considering schooling through what would benefit DS1 but DS2 seems a different personality. If you expect them both to attend the same school then I'd weigh that up carefully. The sporty school for DS1 could be awful for DS2.
Your finances should be ok. I know lots of parents with less of a cushion and who aren't spending as much on holidays.

It is worth comparing the academic profiles of schools. Specifically around the quality of teaching in relation to science, maths and languages, including classics. That was the basis upon which we made our choice.

We found many comprehensives (SW London) did not offer three separate sciences, had minimal mfl choice and provision with few children moving to A'Level and no classics provision. Ultimately for us it was all about the education and the fact we knew we could cover the fees even if one of us died or became critically ill.

Our DC are now 26 and 22. FWIW, including university the education bill is £350,000. It's worth a long hard think and I am not sure the op and her dh have the solid financial foundations right now to take this decision and the stability DC should focus on what people have in the here and now and not on a projected trajectory of income that may not materialise.

If you feel you have job security, on the figures you have provided, it seems fine - unless there is huge undisclosed debt/monthly expenditure. Only you can decide whether you wish to go down this route. If you have any doubts, then don’t - it’s actually quite simple.

How have you worked out that you will only be able to save £400/£500 pm from presumably way in excess of 10.5k net in 3 yrs’ time? Your current mortgage will be less than £2.5k then and you will start with only one set of school fees in 3 yrs’ time.

Thanks all so much for the different perspectives. On the one hand I can see very clearly that I’ve invested private education with a sort of mythical protective factor, from people smashing windows in class and huge fights outside school and being tripped, kicked, locked in cupboards - and more broadly, bailiffs and mould and unpainted walls and clothes I got teased for.

The overall figure of ~400k for two children is really sobering though. We could buy them each a flat for that. We also have perhaps the option for DS1 at least for the grammar school. I know it’s not exactly the same but I don’t know if it’s 200k worth of difference.

@sansou DH works it out on a magical spreadsheet that’s colour coded and has various cells that change amounts automatically. Basically 10.5k - 2.5k (mortgage) - 2k (fees) then childcare, insurances, utilities, food, phones, kids activities, fun money for us, savings for holidays, kids, Christmas and car expenses, his commute, dog walking..... if you take that all away it leaves £500 odd quid apparently.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Of course you have enough money.

Next!

This.

We send two privately and have no holidays and no fun money, so yes you can afford it.

I would look at your whole financial position. For me, it would be important to know pensions are properly sorted and in track for comfortable retirement and there is money for emergencies and to pay school fees for a while if a crisis happened.

Concerns to me are the no pension and actually, not that significant equity in the house for your age and area.

Spending £12k a year on holidays but not paying into a pension seems odd priorities. Do you have a massive mortgage too, which if DH lost job would be difficult to pay?

If you are saving £25k a year, you would effectively be paying all the fees out of salary. It would be less risky if at least a chunk were paid from some form of savings and you weren’t quite so reliant on the monthly income.

That said, I imagine lots of the parents are in your position. They have well paying jobs and an expensive lifestyle but behind the scenes, the pensions aren’t that well funded and the mortgage remains really high. But most of them get by fine, unless they have a big crisis. And you should be the same.

I think you can afford it. Given your focus is for a comfortable life for your DS, perhaps Tiffin isn’t the route. LOTS of preparation will be needed to beat the other very clever boys applying and the experience there wouldn’t be as shiny as Tiffin will be very underfunded, like most state grammars. The general level of intelligence will be higher than at Hampton (quite simply more people applying for the places) but Hampton will squeeze out better results.

And yes to the fact there will be a range of wealth at Hampton, from those who have shed loads of it and multiple houses, to those who are solid middle class making some sacrifices in terms of cars and holidays to pay the fees, but are still comfortable, to those whose sacrifices are huge, to the few on full bursaries from really very very different backgrounds.

£200K can buy you a hell of a lot of extra curriculars and a huge deposit on a flat that will take the career pressure off somewhat. Surely that will make for a happy ever after life?

I'd try for Tiffin to GCSE - supplement the extra curriculars with music lessons (although Tiffin will offer these), theatre, travelling experiences, 1-1 sports coaching (many of the sporty kids and sports scholars at independent schools belong to, and get their main training, out of school).

Re-evaluate at sixth form.

He has a pension!

He has taken a break for 18 months to buy into lockstep.

Now we don't need another poster saying sort the pension.

@SeasonFinale 😂 tbh I am grateful as it’s given us the kick up the arse to get it sorted.

I mean how much more do non-moneyed professionals than £250k equity in the house plus, say, a £100k in the pension pot by the time they are 40?

Pre-pandemic we spent comparable sums on holidays as OP. It feels wrong to defer living until you are retired, call me financially-unreasonable...

Definitely pay fees for Hampton instead of going for Tiffin if that’s the choice.

My 2 cents: don't go by general opinions of private and state. Compare only the 2-3 specific options you have in front of you. Research those schools thoroughly, speak to parents, look T the kids, go to open days, do all you can. That will give you the best answers.

At one point we turned down a selective grammar for an Indie. And after a few months that same indie for another grammar. It was purely by comparing the 2 schools in question. How this whole game 'generally' plays out is irrelevant to your situation.