I need to talk really frankly about money and fees for private secondary

[EmbMonStu]

I’d like to apologise at the outset for speaking so gauchely and brashly about money, and for referencing large amounts of money when some people are going through such an awful time. I have literally no one to discuss this with because who can you talk actual amounts with IRL?

Also, I recognise my privilege, we are extremely lucky, my kids will be fine whatever we do and I’m aware this is not a real “problem”.

DH and I both from very working class backgrounds, first in family to Uni etc. I am trying to figure out whether private secondary will be an option for us financially. I’m looking at Hampton School as an example.

DS1 (very very bright and sporty) is in year 4. By the time he enters secondary school we should, in theory and assuming nothing changes have about £85k in the bank and another 25k in “really mustn’t touch it but can break glass if true emergency” money. This will come incrementally from savings rather than a lump sum.

We will be saving around £25k a year from salaries at this point also.

I estimate fees, lunches and transport to a secondary school like Hampton will cost around 25k a year. So essentially, we will be saving nothing.

We will still be able to spend around 12k a year on holidays, have lots of fun money etc, private health insurance etc. We certainly won’t be scrimping, but will be saving very little, perhaps 4-500 a month.

DS2 is four years behind DS1 so would start in 2027. At this point DH should be earning considerably more than he does now and fees will be less of a concern.

If he dies or other disaster strikes we will have to pull the children out and sell house anyway, life insurance not withstanding.

So basically, is this enough? Would you spend all the money you would otherwise save, on fees? Leaving you with a nest egg of this amount? If you could still a nice lifestyle?

Also we live in a semi detached in a fairly nice area, but I wouldn’t want to be a poor relation in the school. We wouldn’t probably be able to move if committed to fees, although very happy in the house currently.

Thanks if you’ve got this far. This is all very alien to me and I feel I need a steer!

You lost me at DH doesn’t have a pension. Are you serious? Given his earnings/likely earnings progression he’s massively missed the boat on being able to pay decent amounts into a pension. He’s also missed out on his employer making contributions. Not sure on the position for salaried partners but most places don’t contribute for equity partners (it’s taking out of one hand to give to the other).

Does he have other provisions for retirement? If not I would get yourself a financial advisor ASAP before committing to any school fees.

Get him to set a pension up ASAP whilst he might be able to make use of some carry back allowances.

@RenMcCormackisafox that is really wise, thank you.

@Zandathepanda I agree, a brilliant comp would be the ideal. I have though about moving near to Glyn or Hinchley Wood schools but I just love the house and area. Something to consider though.

@JabbyMcJabface 90% of that was lost on me I am afraid but he was paying into a pension until 18 mo ago and will start again in August. I hope that’s a bit better!

Assume 10% fee increases per year and don't forget that you may want to pay for university education
You don't mention your housing costs/mortgage situation

[quote EmbMonStu]@JabbyMcJabface 90% of that was lost on me I am afraid but he was paying into a pension until 18 mo ago and will start again in August. I hope that’s a bit better![/quote]
Loads!

I would still recommend a decent financial advisor though given be will likely not be able to make standard pension contributions. A decent one will model out various scenarios for you based on your DH’s potential earnings and incorporating various expenses included school fees. Plus your earnings and estimated pension. From that they’ll be able to come up with some forecasts of what the income will be in retirement.

Sorry, I know that’s not what you asked about at all! But it might help you make a more informed decision about school fees.

@EmbMonStu what do you mean by smoothing the way? Bottom line is that there is nastiness and bullying in all schools and less than desirable behaviour. You will probably have less behavioural problems in a selective state school in that realkt poor behaviour will be managed out but you still get the smart arses, the ones with the big mouth, the ones who think they’re gods gift. That won’t change. There’ll also be plenty of kids who aren’t that nice and some who come from troubled, although affluent, backgrounds who have their own issues. Obviously, there will also be lots of lovely boys and good as well as poor teachers. Not all the teachers will inspire your son. Some he will love abs others he won’t and the feeling may be mutual. Not putting you off. I was educated at a too girls school and have a child currently in private education so do have a bit of an idea!

Go on less holiday? Then you can save £6,500 a year

Housing costs 2.5 k mortgage and about 250k equity in house at the mo.

@Atrixie smoothing the way.... I suppose I just want them to go out in the world with that confidence and sense of belonging and ease in whatever situation you find yourself. To know that whatever obstacles you have the weapons of privilege/connections/education and family money to cushion you.
To be safe in this world.

I have a Step Son that goes to SA boys in Herts he very bright and does well there but I'd honestly say he would have done just as well in a state school.
The teachers he has there are a mixed bag some are bad so like others have said just because you pay don't mean the teachers are top standard !
I think because he has gone to this type of school it's not done him any good with his social skills for when he goes into the big world and he's very immature for his age he is very clever and gets straight As but he has no experience with regards his view of the real world he will even look down on other kids that go to state school and he even said to me once that he would never date a girl that went to a state school as he thinks they would have nothing in common he is 17 btw !! and he has a very bad misconception of poor ppl so him calls them . His dad is nothing like this at all so I can only put these views down to the school he goes to and the kids he mixes with there !

I have a son that is older then him and went to state school a good one he did well there he is now at uni in a good one up north but the difference in them is worlds apart like a teacher has said a few post back if he has good work ethics he will do fine in a very good state school I know I'm only going on one boy but if that's the kind of snobbery that's installed in them from these schools I'd rather save my money

Some young people are desperate to stay within their tribe. It’s no different to a working class kid refusing to engage with a posh kid. They like what they are comfortable with and they don’t have the advantage of maturity. It usually comes and then they alter their views. All dc hopefully. I’m sure a working class person would be grateful to be attended to by a Dr who went to private school and vice versa. People eventually rub along but 17 year olds are still finding their way in the world.

I think you probably will have enough to pay for education. If he’s really bright I would aim higher and transfer to a prep and plan for 13 plus.

@PresentingPercy excuse my ignorance, but why would you aim for that? What would the benefit be?

My brother is an equity partner in a large law firm and everything went to crap for him financially when the firm went through a bad patch. Basically the partners only get paid from profits. No profits, no pay. They had to move out of their big lovely house into a small rental for several years. His older kids went private but the younger ones are in a state school as he can’t afford the fees. They were starting to get back on their feet then covid hit. So he’s been earning nothing like his previous salary for almost 5 years. And he’s still working 12+ hours a day.

In theory it sounds easy that if something disastrous happened you would just make a change, but moving kids out of schools where they are happy is very emotive and most people try to avoid it. I know two families who’ve basically impoverished themselves to keep their kids at expensive schools after a parent lost their job or had a health crisis. And I understand why they’ve done it but the stress of money worries does weigh heavily on the kids as well. And you look at those kids post school and they are no better off academically or more confident than their state school counterparts. Just something worth considering when you are completely reliant on the future salary of one partner.

Disappointed in top private school www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/4140193-Disappointed-in-top-private-school

Might be worth having a read of this current thread.

Are law firms not making lots of redundancies at the moment? What sort of law, I think most areas will be really squeezed.

Have you planned for university too?

Personally, having decent savings was more important to us in the end.

Op I get your reasoning on private. We have sent our kids private from 3 for very similar reasons, partly because one of our dds likely has borderline asd traits so is quite vulnerable. We picked a non selective private which has a focus on a really rich curriculum and isn’t very results focused. We can afford it, but don’t have a huge amount left over each month.

My kids are very happy and have made good friends. So in that way it’s been a real success. I have to be honest and say that sometimes I resent paying the money and feel state teaching is just as good. But kids didn’t have to do sats and got lots of music, art, drama etc which they really enjoy.

I suppose I just want them to go out in the world with that confidence and sense of belonging and ease in whatever situation you find yourself. To know that whatever obstacles you have the weapons of privilege/connections/education and family money to cushion you.

You can look at this the other way round though, and argue that successful state-educated kids have a sense of confidence and belonging from knowing that they made it in the same education system attended by the vast majority of the population, without needing to be defensive about having been given extra privileges.

At least that is my experience, and iirc there is data to show that at university level state-educated dc outperform privately-educated dc with similar grades, presumably because they have had to take ownership of their education and acquired extra resilience and perseverance in the process.

Both the private schools we have been at lunch was excluded but the school leaned heavily on you to avoid packed lunches.

You can afford it OP

However - you will always have people flocking to these threads telling you that state kids do better educationally wise

I’m glad my kids are in private the schools near me are dreadful

I have only read ops responses, but if you haven’t been to private school/know lots of people who do, you may be underestimating the fees. There could be levys, some per child and some per family, up to 1k maybe, trips and camps, uniform will be 1k, train/bus ticket could be similar, books expensive too.

@Effzeh those state school stats are very interesting I think. I went to Oxbridge from a state school myself and the teaching was on average probably better than dds’ school.
I think dc who get to uni from state school haven’t had the spoon-feeding or sense of entitlement and have to have more internal drive to get the top grades.

To know that whatever obstacles you have the weapons of privilege/connections/education and family money to cushion you.

That knowledge doesn't always serve people very well. Of course you want a good life for your kids but that sentence is pretty unpleasant really. I have known a few people to have been privately educated and who have exactly the awareness you outlined above and all it has led to is complacency, arrogance and a lack of drive. Obviously, that's not going to be the case for everyone from private schools but I find it odd that that's all you want for them. There's a lot missing from that list that I would expect most people to wish their children would gain from their schooling, such as resilience, independence, ambition, an appreciation for what they have...

A couple of observations op:
Hampton is a fabulous school and my ds (26 now) always regarded the Hampton Boys as some of the nicest they played against (and St Johns).

What will you do if your younger boy doesn't get in and you have the complication of different schools in opposite directions?

The fact that the costs of the extras is always dragged up is irksome. The extras (incl trips and I think they need those especially if musical or sporty) come to about 10% and the uniform is a miniscule cost comparatively. If people can't afford the extras and can't afford the trips imo, they can't afford it.

Teaching quality at schools like Hampton which is an option compared to KCS, St Paul's etc, will be excellent and if there's a blip the school will deal with it quickly.

Re your finances I'd say 40 is quite late for a magic/silver circle to be taking off, work friendships change and managing partners fall from grace. However corporate insolvency is likely to be very busy over the next few years. However, a £2500 pcm mortgage against £250,000 equity is, in my opinion, an eye watering risk and if the worst came to the worst you would be unlikely to be able to move or remortgage (in the context of future security) to fund fees.

Bear in mind that you will likely have to pay £7k pa rent for each child for three years at uni or the equivalent thereof taking into account inflation.

Personally I think you are cutting it fine in the context of risk should something change. You mentioned earlier you'd consider a school like Glyn and I think you should. It's an excellent school, you will mitigate the risks and you can keep the option of sending them to a private 6th form.

To the PP whose Bill's law firm performed so poorly that he lost everything then it clearly was NOT a top law firm despite what he may have had you believe.

We were in the same situation as you OP. In fact my DH took a pay cut she he first became an equity partner from a salaried partner because of lockstep points. It sounds very much as though you would manage now and as you say the likelihood is based on his billings etc that he would be promoted upwards and the fees become even more manageable. We too paid less into pensions when he was buying in but have made up for it since.

I can't see it being an issue for you to afford fees on the basis of what you have said. We used to have a separate account with 2 years of school fees available in case of emergency job loss/restructuring etc. His area of law is always busy and not subject to much change (such as property). We never needed to tap into that 2 year reserve and indeed topped it up so it now covers uni too - except we still haven't touched it.

Go for it. Ignore the people who have hijacked the thread to express their anti private school views.

He doesn't have a pension
And your life insurance would not cover your mortgage and school fees

Those are two priorities I'd sort out first

I'm a state teacher so always feel annoyed when people assume private education is always better. Why not move to an area that has outstanding schools if your kids are bright they would thrive in a grammar environment maybe ? Spend your money on sport personal trainer and tutors if necessary but that's just me putting my two pen'th in ...

Just read that you are not bothered about top grades just want them to have a nice life ?

Private schools push hard for the top grades if that environment is not going to make your child happy don't send them , save your money

@nitsandwormsdodger

Just read that you are not bothered about top grades just want them to have a nice life ?

Private schools push hard for the top grades if that environment is not going to make your child happy don't send them , save your money

Some private schools push hard for top grades. Some do really well at focussing on all rounders, some have amazing drama programs, some great sports teams. It really does vary.