Missed out on entry to grammar & independent secondaries in London

[cantstopstressing]

Posting slightly in desperation. DS is 10 and we are mid way through applying to a number of grammar and independent schools in North London for admission next year. DS is bright (top set in both Maths & English) at an outstanding state primary and hardworking. We tutored for 18 months in advance of the exams. He did 2 grammar schools in North London and didn't get into top 650 (Latymer) or top 350 for the other one. He has done a couple of independents but we are not hopeful as one was a CEM select test and the timing was extremely aggressive and the other (also a super selective school with 800+ applicants for 75 places) was also very tough and he didn't write much in the creative writing section of the English paper so I am not hopeful that he will get offers from those either.

I guess I am wondering where we (or I) went wrong. Maybe I misjudged how academic he is plus I think, on reflection, doing 2 hours a week with a tutor and past papers up until the last few months where he was doing 5-6 hours per week, simply wasn't enough. I am aware there are kids doing a couple of hours each day. I feel like I have let him down as I don't believe he will get any offers from the schools we applied to and will face a number of rejections which will knock his confidence. As I said, he is top of his class and, although I know there is a huge gap between being good at a state primary and what independent schools will teach, I guess I am still surprised and disappointed that none of these schools are an option for him. Why is it a clever boy can't get a place at decent indie in London?

Hi OP - it’s a really stressful experience, so you have my sympathies. I don’t think you tutored too little. It sounds like you did pretty much what I did for my DS when we went through this last year. We came from state too. And you allowed him free time to have a childhood. I think the risk of doing a huge amount of tutoring is that you get your DC into the school...and then they are miserable when they get there.

It’s no comfort but I think you really only aimed for the very top. I’m from SW London so don’t know your area as well but there are decent indies that are (slightly) easier to get into.

If your DS doesn’t get into your indie schools then I think you should think about the prep option. I think I’ve seen that you aren’t keen on that but what are your other options unless you have a good non selective state back up? You can try and ring around come Easter 2021 but it’ll be stressful. Remember there is a lot of movement at Y9 so it won’t feel strange to be joining a school then.

If you aren’t interested in boarding - perhaps look at schools at the outskirts of London who do a mixture of day/boarding and have a daily coach service. That’s a popular option in SW London for schools in Surrey and opens it up a bit.

Good luck to your DS.

I think covid has had a huge impact. You can't really compare the experience of a child with live streaming lessons and parents throwing extra money at tutoring in the time little Johnny would be doing rugby/swimming etc with that of a state school kid whose school suspended the curriculum in March, had no live lessons, and whose parents were not able to help. I am sure there is a good school out there and GCSEs seem to rely a lot on personal motivation. Having had this experience at 11 and seeing the impact of revision and exam prep he might be even more motivated for GCSE revision than if he had not passed.

I have gone through 11+ three times now. I had a good idea which schools my DC would get offered places for. Schools close to me are highly sought after with 800+ applicants for 60. My DC attended the local state primary and a tutor wasnt going to be enough to prepare them for the standard expected at those schools. So i used their entrance exam as practice for them. My BIL would disagree as his DS skipped into westminster from a state school with no tutor although I know he did alot of work with him . Dont feel defeated...your DS will be ok. the process is so stressful

@Users65253716262 the preparation they get from a prep school is vastly different to that of a state school - which is nothing. Most of the exams, Latymer certainly, cover things that they learn in Y6 so there is no way a state-educated child would have a chance without tutoring/ exam practice. Basically the stuff that they do at prep schools from about Y4. There's a huge gap as 11+ etc is not what state schools are aiming for, they're just trying to get them through SATs.

@Stokey Pardon my ignorance as I have not been very involved in conversations with other parents, but how do non-London state primary children then transition to state secondary schools, eventually taking the same exams as London state and independent schools at GCSE? I know many families who can well afford independent schools but don’t do so for various reasons. They seem to think that the standard of education is pretty similar in good state, comps and grammars, and independent schools.

On the tutoring - we’re at a lovely but small and slightly disorganised state school and the tutoring (1 hour per week for 18 months plus some DIY support since the summer) has been the first time our son has had any real stretch. Usually in maths he and his friends do the ‘challenge’ questions and then sit twiddling their thumbs or reading a book for half an hour. He’s also enjoyed doing proper creative writing instead of regurgitating a story using set sentence structures and writing styles. He’s made so much progress in the last year, I really don’t think he would struggle that much at a selective school once he settled in to the homework regime. I think we’d just underestimated how how much others were doing, whether at prep school or through tutoring, and now I am kicking myself.

We aren’t hell-bent on a selective option at all- in fact our top choice is the large, wildly popular, local comprehensive which really does cater for everyone. Unfortunately though, the rest of the local comprehensives on our list, even if we are lucky enough to get them, will leave significant gaps to fill in terms of subjects and extra curricular activities they don’t offer. We are talking about pretty mainstream things here too - not Ancient Greek and rowing!

@Users65253716262 I think the biggest gap is at 11+ because unless you're in a grammar school region, it's just not on most state primary schools' radar. The gap shrinks later as, as you say, both the Indies & state schools are doing the same exams at GCSEs. We have only applied for one selective school and if Dd1 doesn't get in, she will be going to the local comprehensive, where I still expect she will get decent grades. Also the selective exams are taken at the start of Y6 but cover the Y6 syllable. By the end of Y6, they will have covered it in state primaries too.

Prep schools' USP is to get your child through an entrance exam to a great secondary school so they are preparing for that from a very early stage. My DDs' experience is similar to @Matsikula above. Normally bored in Maths at school and told to read her book when she finishes early. I assume they are more stretched at secondary as they can do more subjects if they are more academic.

Thanks for clarifying @Stokey. Good luck to your DD1. I am sure she will do well. With Maths, it seems they are either bored or find it too difficult. Good luck to your DS too, OP. He might still get into a really selective school in the end. It is too early to tell.

Wow..... he's a 10 year old boy. I'm sure he will be happy wherever he goes to school.

When my DD got into Latymer, the important tests were the non-verbal reasoning as they show a child's ability rather than what they've crammed. We were surprised she got in with no tutoring or extra work and she was happy there and did well. Surely the testing identifies children who will most benefit from their time there and weeds out those who are hot-housed but may fall behind without the extra help? I'm sorry your DS has lost his confidence during the process - I'm sure the other posters are correct who say there will be a school that's a better fit for him. Good luck.

@lifestooshort123 there is no NVR anymore, just maths, VR & English. You have to get in the top 650 out of 2,600 in Maths & VR just to get your English marked. Good to hear your DD was half there though without hothousing.

2 hours a week of tutoring plus practice papers sounds like a lot to me - more would have been excessive. If that wasn't enough for him to get in, then they weren't the right schools for him (at this stage at least).

FWIW, my youngest did get offered definite places at both DAO and Latymer this year and has decided not to take them because they would have involved a lot of travel and she wasn't keen. I say this not to brag but because I think there can be a feeling that local schools are full of grammar and indie rejects but in fact there are many very bright children at those schools who either opted not to take up a grammar place, narrowly missed out on one or didn't even consider that as an option.

Your DS is clearly bright and supported - he will be fine. And if you really want him to go to an Indie there will definitely be less competitive ones that have places available in the coming months.

11+ is not everything. There's no way I would have passed it as it is now, I was totally dreamy and distracted at that age. But I went on to get all As at A-level, place at Oxford etc I'm not suggesting by any means that that is the ultimate measure of success (and given my time again I'd make different choices) but my point is that people thrive academically at different ages and stages so don't panic that he hasn't aced his 11+, it's just the beginning...

One of my children was “very bright” - top in primary school - London state, gifted and talented, junior music conservatoire etc. We didn’t apply to grammars or independents. Went to a decent comprehensive. I assumed they would be out in the top stream...and they weren’t. They were put in middle stream. In the end, it really didn’t matter. Still got the best grades in all GCSE subjects. In the long run, none of it matters. Another of my children, very average at state primary, went to an decent independent. Is now at the same RG university with other “average” children from her primary school, all of whom had gone to very average comprehensives. I’ve learned a lot over the past few years. I wish I hadn’t stressed about education so much, or spent a load on private school.

You are so right @deathbyprocrastination. It can seem like the be all and end all and the playground chatter can be deafening. I know plenty of kids who chose a more local state option as opposed to top indies in our area who have thrived. They have gained places at Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, etc in competitive subjects. Commuting isn't for everyone. I have one who commutes to Tiffin and he hardly ever sees his school friends outside of school because the kids are from all over, while my other two who stayed more local see their friends, and are doing just as well academically. Happiness is really key to their success and confidence at school. You have to look at your child objectively and recognise their needs as opposed to what everyone else is saying would be best for them, which I found in the world of school pick-up chatter has nothing to do with what my child or their children need but has more to do with comparing and status of school choice. Don't beat yourself up. Just focus one what he needs.

Also, in my limited experience of a child at a top grammar, many of those kids were tutored within and inch of their lives and seem to still have tutors, which I think is ridiculous and too much pressure. My DS has classmates who have 5 different Tutors for 5 different subjects. Why??? That's not how you learn or develop a love of learning. You have to fail at some point and we learn from these failures. But, I recognise that I'm in the minority at Tiffin anyway.

I often think that people could make this process less stressful for themselves by taking their head out of the league tables, Ofsted reports and forums online and look at what's actually under their nose.

I am in north London and my dc goes to a very under-subscribed school with high levels of FSM/economic deprivation etc. It's in a fairly affluent area and it's very striking that very few children who live in the area go to the school.

It's fantastic for him. Staff who have been there years and really get children and how they develop. Excellent curriculum. Superb pastoral care. SEN provision is under-funded as everywhere but the teachers are kind, empathic and excellent at communicating with parents.

Exam results are overall not good, but I honestly think he'll do as well as he would anywhere else. Some children do well, some very well.

If people have looked around their local schools in good faith and then decided that they're not right for their child then fair enough, but imvhe the decision is made well in advance of this.

I’m so sorry about this. You know these schools (Latymer, Dame Alice Owen, Highgate and City of London) are looking for the top 5%, Even a score of 80% which is super bright wouldn’t be enough.

There’s simply a lot of Mensa kids around in London. So sorry, but I think your son will do great anyway. Hopefully you can tell him that the most important thing is too try, no matter the result.

@christinarossetti19 That's very interesting. Whilst we did decide upon a selective school for DC in the end because we believed that particular school
was right for DC (and I feel we had a reasonable approach to it ), a school like your DC goes to was our preferred choice amongst the local secondary schools. We were so impressed by the head teacher and the teachers we spoke to during the open evening. Not many from DC's primary could even be bothered to see that school (out of snobbery, is my feeling).

i'm so glad my kids don't go to school in london. it's awful. My eldest struggled
at prep school and ended up at Millfield where he got 10 As at GCSE and then went to a 6th form college and got AAB. My v bright daughter went to CLC on an academic scholarship (no tutoring ) and for 8- 9's snd 2 8's at GCSE. My third is at Warminster and it doing brilliantly all A's and B's and my 4th is still at prep school. W w haven't ever tutored m, 3 out of 4 board and they all do lots of extras and have tonnes of fun.... wouldn't change it for the world.

If it helps I was a bright child, went to a top university and couldn’t make sense of the St. Paul’s mock English 11 plus exam!

Hello,

I’m genuinely curious to find out what people mean by ‘tutored within an inch of their lives’ and the consequent worry that they won’t cope in a selective school.

My daughter is working hard in her tutoring class, but other than learning lots of new vocabulary (eg synonyms, antonyms), she’s covering the same grammar and maths she’s already done at school. The only difference is that she’s revising more often.

She’s at a prep, I don’t know if that makes a difference.

But even if she was learning new maths, wouldn’t it mean that her knowledge has improved and would therefore help her cope at secondary school?

I also don’t understand this idea that you’re going to carry over your level at primary over to secondary school.

My daughter’s main problem is that she’s 9 and she’s not really interested in working hard, but I’ve heard from so many friends how around 14-15 kids become more invested in school and start being more responsible and working hard, which seems to show on their results.

I don’t know, maybe I’m too naive?

User - I think they mean children who have to slog hard to reach and stay at that level. Who can’t just wing it (at least in their best subjects) and have it be ok, who end up spending all their time on homework and schoolwork, and having no time for anything else.

There was a thread a few months ago describing the type of child who fits well at a super selective school - something like ‘was always top at primary with no effort, can learn a sheet of French/Latin/whatever vocab in five minutes while on the tube to their hockey match, never had to learn their times tables or spellings at primary school because they just knew them’. It was better put, but that’s the gist, and I think it does describe the type of child who will thrive at those types of schools. Though I’d add they need to enjoy academic and intellectual work - it’s not just about being able to do it, they need to be willing, too.

@HighRopes, thanks!

My daughter definitely doesn’t fit that description, thankfully we’re not aiming for a super selective!

I think that the problem with some children are 'over tutored' is that they then need that same level of support throughout secondary school, especially if they have moved from private to state. A child who can just pass an entrance exam when in a class of 18 well behaved peers with say an extra hour of one to one tutoring a night might be quite different to a child with the same score who has been in a class of 30, some of whom are violent and disruptive and then has an hour a week of tutoring with a small group of other children. The first child might struggle more when they are then in a class of 32 in a grammar school and there is very little individual attention but fast paced learning. Many children then need tutoring on top of school throughout secondary school just to keep up, whereas if they had gone to a school more at the level of their ability they would be towards the top and would be moving at an appropriate pace. Of course you can achieve a similar outcome with a good comprehensive with appropriate setting for different subjects.

Waitingforsunshine yes it's interesting. It does poorly overall in terms of exams results, due to the intake and 'churn' but Ofsted's have been consistently good/outstanding in areas with a consistent leadership team.

Most middle class parents don't even go and look at it, which is their loss as far as I'm concerned. It does seem to be well regarded by local teachers though.

Hi christinarossetti

What school is this? It isn't Greig City, is it?