Missed out on entry to grammar & independent secondaries in London

[cantstopstressing]

Posting slightly in desperation. DS is 10 and we are mid way through applying to a number of grammar and independent schools in North London for admission next year. DS is bright (top set in both Maths & English) at an outstanding state primary and hardworking. We tutored for 18 months in advance of the exams. He did 2 grammar schools in North London and didn't get into top 650 (Latymer) or top 350 for the other one. He has done a couple of independents but we are not hopeful as one was a CEM select test and the timing was extremely aggressive and the other (also a super selective school with 800+ applicants for 75 places) was also very tough and he didn't write much in the creative writing section of the English paper so I am not hopeful that he will get offers from those either.

I guess I am wondering where we (or I) went wrong. Maybe I misjudged how academic he is plus I think, on reflection, doing 2 hours a week with a tutor and past papers up until the last few months where he was doing 5-6 hours per week, simply wasn't enough. I am aware there are kids doing a couple of hours each day. I feel like I have let him down as I don't believe he will get any offers from the schools we applied to and will face a number of rejections which will knock his confidence. As I said, he is top of his class and, although I know there is a huge gap between being good at a state primary and what independent schools will teach, I guess I am still surprised and disappointed that none of these schools are an option for him. Why is it a clever boy can't get a place at decent indie in London?

Foxesandsquirrels, I also became aware of how other kids had been doing 5-6 hours a day on 11+ prep during lockdown and nothing else. A tutor told me as much. And one of the boys I know who got a place at Latymer was taken out of school for 3 weeks before the exam to do prep. I am pretty sure that DS will be ok as he is smart and self motivated. I do just question the craziness of the system and why there are so few places. We did consider moving out of London but it seems too late now that the deadline for secondary admissions has passed.

That amount of prep is crazy.

We didn’t bother with tutor, except for economics graduate to go through a couple of school tests that didn’t supply answers. Mostly because in lockdown he missed challenging work and needed interaction not from us. Only four or five times though.

Then did a fair few practise papers and Atom mocks for three weeks.

So far less prep than outlined below. We don’t hear until Jan though, didn’t bother with grammars. Too far.

DC is now in Yr7. I don't think the odds were that much different last year, but I do understand that the competition is more fierce this year. I can see how lockdown would have had an impact this year and tbh DC's primary wasn't that great for home schooling so I found other sources that'd be more interesting (I spent about half and hour on Sundays doing this). But of course, DC had already sat the exams by then. For what it's worth, in DC's class, everyone that got into highly selective schools, were the ones I would have guessed a couple of years earlier. But as mentioned above, getting in is only the first step. You then have to be able to manage the school.

In reality the number of places are not that low because it's often the same children sitting these exams and each child can only take one place. In the end, there's a place for everyone.

The prep was 1 hour with tutor and then some homework for the following week (but as I let DC manage it, I'm not sure how much it was but nothing too overbearing).

DC is very happy in Yr7 now and I can assure everyone that the kids there are not nerds who've been pushed by their parents like mad. In fact, they all seem very much like the kids in DC's primary school with some high achievers in various sports.

I know children who had no summer holiday last year and sat for 5 hours every day prepping not getting in. DC did 2 hours of revision with a tutor, one mock and maybe 5 hours on top (if that) of that over the summer holidays. I do believe that DC has a "natural" ability towards maths and has always read a lot (without me doing anything about it, but we're a family of big readers). I don't think that just lots of hours will do it, in general.

But DC is absolutely not exceptional. Smart and good work ethics, yes. Exceptional, no.

OP, I have put 2 children through 7+, 11+ and then 13+. Not London but close enough in the extent of competition for places.

I get that if you do pay big money for private you want it to be a top school. I do however agree that you have chosen some of the most hard-to-get-into places in London and SE. So you shouldn't be surprised that you son didn't get in, and I mean it kindly. It's a numbers game.

From what you are saying, you don't really have a choice but either consider some different private school options or go to state. State ones are not great, you say. Then go for the private one that your son can get into. Look into what else it offers for you to get a sense that you are getting good value for money. See if you like the feel of the school. Your son is bright so he WILL do well academically in his education. He does need to feel happy and settled in order to achieve that, and it's not something that any top school will guarantee to deliver. In fact, it can be quite the opposite.

Btw, don't believe that the indies always will be a better prep for the 11+. My friends' DCs didn't do very well in those exams - one came from a small indie and none from that school got a grammar place or an interview at the indies mentioned. Another one, whose DC is at Channing, didn't get interviews at Highgate or the other very selective schools she sat for.

There are less selective indies but that I believe will be as good from an educational point of view as any other school. It won't have the "selective touch" to it and the cohort will be more varied, but does that matter?

In the end, we only really found one school worth paying for (our backup I realised, wasn't worth the money) but we didn't mind our nearby secondary. Only you know what you want. How about Northbridge House or Belmont?

@cantstopstressing Please don’t judge schools like Aldenham based purely on results. As you have experienced, the very brightest will be heading to the schools your son sat for and wasn’t successful. These schools get the results they do because they are ridiculously selective.

Aldenham takes a much wider academic ability. Now consider their results again. If they are taking those students who are average and turning Bs and Cs into As and Bs then arguably it’s a better school than one that just gets top grades for those who were going to get top grades anyway? Aldenham and other schools like it consistently have children getting a full house of 8s and 9s. Clever children also do extremely well at these sorts of schools. Forget the league tables. Look at to whether the school can meet the needs of your son. Do they set, is there a gifted and talented programme, is there help available for SEN, do they play his favourite sport (and are there several teams if he’s not A team material?). If he’s into drama then how many productions each year and are they open to all of a select few? Can he have music lessons on his chosen instrument?

We moved out of London because I just couldn’t be doing with the ridiculous nature of the whole admissions process. The same children sitting for the same 5-7 schools, ridiculous levels of tutoring (you did more than enough!!!!), and the frenzy the parents get themselves into.

We are within half an hour of London. Grammar school pass, offer from one very selective independent, academic scholarship at another, and a standard offer from a school often considered a “backup” to the selective North London schools. We went with the backup school as she described it as feeling like home. She’s absolutely flying and having the time of her life. The school are on it from day one with the academics and it’s about reaching their individual potential not being another top grade in the exam league tables.

Please keep an open mind. Schools like Aldenham don’t let clever children sink and languish in a pot of average.

I think I will follow WaitingforSunshine here and be brutally honest too. There are endless "really bright" children on Mumsnet. If they are really bright they will be fine, they will get in to "top" schools without much tutoring or fuss. If they don't get in, maybe they had a bad day (or lots of bad days if they applied to lots of schools) or maybe they are not really bright and it's time to accept that and work with their needs rather than parental ambitions. And they can go somewhere else and still be fine. I speak from experience.

I disagree that "if they are really bright they will get into these schools without much tutoring or fuss" or the suggestion that kids who don't get in are "really not that bright." A boy I know who got into Latymer is the same sets as DS and routinely gets the same or worse results than DS. One child I know who is very smart didn't get into Latymer. A huge amount of it is down to exam technique and luck on the day. The luck on the day is increased a huge amount by preparation. I have to find that there is often a degree of smugness from parents whose kids have gotten in. Not all but some as shown on this thread. Sorry, I don't agree that my child must be "not really bright" and yours in because of their performance in one exam.

Thanks Zodlebud, all makes sense. We will definitely consider Aldenham and the other school we have as a back-up. I knew that the other schools were unlikely purely due to numbers but and that it could easily go either way as I've seen that with other kids.

I understood that for Latimer, the kids are scoring above 99% - hence the age weighting to create a way to differentiate. I also understood Latimer had 2000 applicants for 120 places. It is the super super super bright kids.

Latymer! Auto correct!

It's not about luck, it's about intelligence and exam technique. And it's not really about one exam, is it ... each school has about three, if I recall.
But don't lose hope ... the indies are easier to get into than the top state in North London so January may well bring you good news (and a whole new set of issues.) Very best wishes for it all, wherever he ends up.

Please don't let your son know that you're despairing. It's so much pressure to put on a child of his age. If he is bright and as well rounded as you say, he will do well anywhere.

Really academically high pressured schools can be difficult for those who might struggle to keep up too - the child who got into Latymer might struggle (emotionally) with not being top of everything.

There is a tendency for beating yourself up if you "don't do the right thing" and send your child to "the best school" possible. I work in school admissions and I get this a lot from parents, particularly parents who have set their heart on private education and set their heart on going to a particular school (or type of schools). Usually and unfortunately, they therefore either don't bother applying for a state school, or give it little or no thought, meaning they end up with perhaps a school they wouldn't've chosen, had they thought about it.

Firstly, of the state selective schools, have you asked to go on the waiting list? I don't know how far down they were the list.

Secondly, what arrangements have you made for next year ? Closing date was 31/10/2020 for September 2021 entry.

At just above the pass mark determined by standardisation, a lot of DC will be clustered with the same or very similar marks, so the difference between just getting above that and just missing out can be tiny.

I have a spreadsheet of standardised marks for a super-selective Grammar. The pass mark was 218.5: there were 22 boys with marks between 218 and 218.5; and 22 boys between 218.5 and 219. The cut-off has to be somewhere.

These DC are likely to all be scoring around 80% in mocks and I think it is likely that your DS fell into that group of results. So your DS may well be just as able as many of the DC who passed, and that is where the luck part comes into it. Of course there are also DC who score well clear above the pass mark too.

I'm sorry it hasn't worked out for your son the way you'd hoped so far, but I genuinely don't believe more tuition than you did is the answer. I hope you and he end up with a school you're happy with.

Highgate & CLSB are what I consider some of the top indies. Aldenham is in the "decent" category. DAO & Latymer are two of the most difficult state schools to get into.

It may sound harsh but getting 75-80% in online mocks isn't the required standard for your choice of schools. The DC's getting thru those schools will be achieving 90% + in mocks. It's likely that most DC will then achieve 5-15% lower in the actual exams for a variety of reasons.

Don't let the 11+ define your child. Its definitely not a failure. Try not to dwell on the past and focus on future.

Wow this thread is an eye opener, as a secondary school teacher myself I didn’t even realise this was a thing!

Calling your own kids not exceptional is quite sad in my humble opinion. All kids are exceptional in their own way. Some at being kind, some at a specific sport, some at art, drama, singing, helping others.

Moonin, it is most definitely about luck. Intelligence and exam technique play a huge part too but there are often just a few marks in it. I don't really buy that a kid getting 3 or 4 marks, who gets in, is far brighten than a kid who gets 3 marks less and doesn't get in. Some kids are less ready for exams at 10 years old than others which is nothing to do with intelligence. And the north London indies like Highgate and UCS are not necessarily easier to get into than the grammars. With 800 applicants for 75 places surely luck has to come in somewhere as not all competent/intelligent kids are going to get through. I know kids who got into Latymer but didn't get into Highgate and vice versa. I am just frustrated at the ridiculous system we have here where it's extremely difficult to get into a good school.

And I have no worries that DS wouldn't have copied in a grammar like Latymer. The kids I know who went there were bright/top set but not necessarily the brightest kid in the class, hence the luck element.

Thanks to others, this is really helpful. Yes, Latymer was 2600 applicants for 190 places. DS is fairly robust and I am trying to minimise any pressure on him. We did of course apply to our local state school and he should get an offer there and we have Aldenham coming up and one other back-up. I am sure things will turn out ok in the end and this time next year we won't look back.

Teddy, thank you, that is an eye-opener!

@OverTheRainbow88 Wow, how can anyone draw such a judgemental conclusion from this thread? I hope that doesn't apply to the teaching too.

To me/us, the whole aim was to find a school suitable for DC and without putting any pressure on DC. There was never any pressure on going to the tutor or sitting the exams - but with the tutors DC felt challenged for once and actually quite "enjoyed" it. We also said that 3 schools were the max DC could sit exams for and only if we deemed them "right" and DC liked them.

Of course, I view my DC as exceptional, or unique rather, as an individual. But academically, DC is within the norm, even if academically clever. I value my DC way beyond the academic capabilities but of course still want a school suitable for DC.

Anyway, DC sat 3 exams and got 3 offers. Hence, I think we pitched the right schools to apply for based on what would suit DC, not based on others' view on the schools.

Not everyone will get an offer from all schools they apply to, but nonetheless, if you/DC don't get any offer despite sitting several exams, then maybe, just maybe, the chosen schools have not been right. It can't be bad luck all the time.

These discussions can turn quite unpleasant and it is not unusual to see parents calling children/parents of children who got in all sorts, just like in this thread - they're nerds, they don't deserve it, they're just lucky, they've been pushed by their parents etc. Frankly, I find that attitude disgusting.

As a foreigner, I think this whole system is madness but it is what it is. It takes time to navigate through the system and find the school that suits your child (rather than making the child suit the school).

@cantstopstressing, I have no doubt that you'll find the right school for your DS even if it might not be what you'd envisaged at first. But it will be right. I wish you all the best and hope that you don't stress to much about it.

Waitingforsunshine, I don't think overtherainbow was being judgemental at all. Were the schools your DC sat for all super-selectives? In terms of finding a school that is completely suitable for your DC, that implies there is a huge range of choice when there really isn't. We applied to the schools we did on the basis that DS is bright, they were recommended by his tutor and they are close to where we live. They are all fairly traditional schools in terms of how they teach, with good facilities and not overly pressurised. You are talking about an element of choice that doesn't exist in what is essentially a ratrace. I agree the whole system is madness. Can I ask that the education system is in your birth country? I assume it isn't like this everywhere.

And waitingforsunshine, I think it is equally disgusting for smug parents of kids who do get into these schools to suggest that kids who haven't are "not really that bright".

I really think that you're looking at this wrongly. You've sat your child for some of the top schools in the country, that is a tough call for any child. There's no failure in him not going to these schools and to feel disappointed shows a lack of understanding of the reality, it is to all intents and purposes a numbers game. Aldenham is an incredible school, yes it's mixed ability but it's a very special place and gets the best out of the cohort, a real breath of fresh air in the madness of the North London system.