Missed out on entry to grammar & independent secondaries in London

[cantstopstressing]

Posting slightly in desperation. DS is 10 and we are mid way through applying to a number of grammar and independent schools in North London for admission next year. DS is bright (top set in both Maths & English) at an outstanding state primary and hardworking. We tutored for 18 months in advance of the exams. He did 2 grammar schools in North London and didn't get into top 650 (Latymer) or top 350 for the other one. He has done a couple of independents but we are not hopeful as one was a CEM select test and the timing was extremely aggressive and the other (also a super selective school with 800+ applicants for 75 places) was also very tough and he didn't write much in the creative writing section of the English paper so I am not hopeful that he will get offers from those either.

I guess I am wondering where we (or I) went wrong. Maybe I misjudged how academic he is plus I think, on reflection, doing 2 hours a week with a tutor and past papers up until the last few months where he was doing 5-6 hours per week, simply wasn't enough. I am aware there are kids doing a couple of hours each day. I feel like I have let him down as I don't believe he will get any offers from the schools we applied to and will face a number of rejections which will knock his confidence. As I said, he is top of his class and, although I know there is a huge gap between being good at a state primary and what independent schools will teach, I guess I am still surprised and disappointed that none of these schools are an option for him. Why is it a clever boy can't get a place at decent indie in London?

@cantstopstressing Well, I never said/wrote that so I have no idea what you're on about.

But I have to admit that I am a bit tired of the North London mamas thinking that their DCs are outstanding and more entitled to everything (ie entitled to everything they want) than anyone else. And to suggest that others might be more deserving of something (not necessarily about schools) wouldn't even cross their minds. Oh, and it is a ratrace only if you allow it to be so - follow your best, not others' best.

I come from a country where there only are a few independent schools and DCs who go there do either have parents working abroad but they want their DCs to stay within the educational system or DCs who really can't fit in in any other school. Normally, DCs just go to their local primary and then their local comp (that has the subjects you want to study). Students choose what they want to study, they're not being told by anyone else, and if they don't cope they'll change. There are certain subjects deemded more "prestigious" than others but everyone can have a go at them if they want to. But as it is, no one wants to study something that is too difficult for them (and would lead to low grades), so the "selection" happens automatically.

Anyway, next time, maybe clarify that you want yay-sayers only to reply.

And Aldenham is a lovely school - my friends' DCs are certainly thriving there.

Is you local state school really such a bad option? Will his friends from primary be going there? Are their parents happy with that as a choice. Do kids do well there? I am guessing they do. My kids did well at the local comp and it's not one seen as especially desirable - it's very mixed and inner London. They did as well as kids we know at Latymer. Lots of bright kids there alongside them, several got a bundle of 9's and 8's. There's a lot to be said for having local friends and not having to travel!

@cantstopstressing This is a problem almost unique to London. Sure, there’s pressure and stress elsewhere in the country, but it is the parents that create this huge beast. Children in London aren’t cleverer than the rest of the country, they are just more often than that put through huge amounts of tutoring which pushes up pass marks. Don’t even get me started on how I feel about those children subjected to the 4+, 7+ and then the 11+ or 13+.

@nospampls has summed it up nicely by saying how they personally classify schools as “top” and “decent”. What makes one school top and the other only decent? It usually comes down simply to academic results. For a super sporty boy I would think twice about having to schlep to Grove Park to play football on a grass pitch at CLSB. Even these “top” schools have weaknesses when you look at the specific needs of your own child. The only way you can rank schools is how they work for your child.

There is a lot of snobbery when it comes to schools in London too. There was a very interesting post on here not so long ago from a parent whose son had got a place at one of these “top” indies and then had second thoughts. They had got so caught up in the frenzy created by other parents obsession with top schools that it was only later they realised their local comp was actually a much better place for him and their finances.

Don’t get me wrong. Everyone wants the best for their children. I understand you’re frustrated at the system - I was too but moved before I needed to be part of it. But there are some great schools out there, both state and private, which will turn out to be the right place for your son. Just be prepared for people turning their noses up at your choice.

@Waitingforsunshine

I genuinely didn’t mean to be judgmental. I’ve literally just never heard of such things.

@OverTheRainbow88 Okay. Point taken. I really don't think that I'm wrong for not thinking that my DC is more deserving or better than any other child but just focusing on finding the school that plays to DC's strength. DC is a fantastic person, don't get me wrong, but exceptional I leave for the likes of Einstein.

Before I embarked on this year's 11+ journey with DS, I trawled thru the relevant forums and there is a continual pattern of "my DC is bright and top sets/table but shockingly didn't make it for [insert grammar/highly selective school]".

I love my two DC more than anything but I certainly do not think of them as exceptional. Hopefully, they are slightly above average but I do subscribe to growth mindset and remind them that hard work usually beats talent (growth mindset). If I thought they were exceptional and they also believed it, there is high chance my DS would have struggled to pass the 11+ exams this year.

Waitingforsunshine, I don't we/he are more entitled than anyone else and all the kids who have places are perfectly entitled to those. I think think the system is incredibly unfair, however, as it favours families who have the time and resource to tutor their kids. Also, I've worked full time for 25 years and paid into the system. Why am I not entitled to expect a a decent education for my son?

@Zodlebud I agree, I cannot put into words how horrific I find the concept of the 4+ and 7+ for competitive schools is. Tutoring 3 year olds, appalling.

@cantstopstressing Firstly, I thought that you wrote that you had had a tutor for 18 months, 2 hours a week. That is more than double of that we did. Secondly, you obviously think that only certain schools are good enough and that the non-selctive state option(s?) is not good enough for your DS. You must be living near me and there are many decent state schools around here. To expect to get exactly what you want at all times (when it is actually not possible) is a bit "entitled" IMHO.

It doesn't add up what you write but I hope you find a solution nevertheless.

Urgh, this is one of the many issues I have with selection at age 11. It’s so much pressure and often ends with children feeling that they aren’t good enough.

East for you to say waitingforsunshine when none of your DC attend these so called fabulous state schools. I make zero apologies for wanting a decent (not AMAZING but decent) school for my son. If it's so fabulous then why do a decent proportion of the class relocate to a different area for a better school. Are they all entitled as well? Yes, my son did have tutoring but clearly it didn't help and your DC are obviously far smarter/naturally more brilliant. When I said tutor, I meant the hours and hours that some parents put into tutoring/overseeing their kids education. Unfortunately I simply didn't have the time or focus to do this as I work full time so it's possible I wasn't on top of what he was doing. Can I ask if you work?

If you are close to Latymer and DAO OP I'm guessing you are in Barnet or Enfield. There are lots of great state secondaries in those boroughs.

He had a tutor for 18 months for 1 hour per week, one hour homework. The kids I know who were successful getting into the grammars were doing 2-3 hours a day and the parents were hugely organised, booking online mocks, extra sessions, tutors who have specific knowledge of the schools and the exam. Looks at the website 11plus.com if you don't believe me. There is no way DS was going to be able to compete with kids doing that amount of prep. Lucky you that your child is naturally brilliant and didn't need such help.

We are not in Barnet or Enfield. Even if we were most good secondaries have 0.5 mile cut off for getting in.

Tutoring for 6 hours a week is hot housing. How do these kids cope in the grammar on their own? Horrible.

Dd1 has just ranked highly in our grammar area so she will get 1st choice. I couldn't really call it until I got the results. If she had scored below the cut off I had accepted she will go to local comp and likely fly through in top sets and feel grateful for that.

Sounds like a situation you need to make the best of with what's available.

@cantstopstressing don't feel like you need to explain yourself/apologise. I will never forget the one and only time I was invited to neighbours' house for a Christmas lunch together with others on our street, and when I said we don't own the house and rent, because the deposit money have gone onto DS's support and education (as we consider it of utmost importance to give him the best chance in life), they looked at me with shock and horror as if I suddenly grew a horn on my forehead.

I am just finishing our first 11+ process, and having received a mix of yays and nays, I can only confirm it's as brutal as you now know and then some. I have spent many a sleepless night thinking about whether I have done bad by my son, not giving him enough time and a fair chance against children who had 100s of hours of specialised tuition over him, but luckily it seems to be working out at the end.

Hope you figure a Plan B out.

I think most north London boroughs have a few decent state secondaries. Haringey has APS, Fortismere, Highgate Wood and I think Skinners is improving. Islington has a few decent ones too. If you really want private Forest School in Snaresbrook seems nice and nurturing, possibly less academically selective.

OP I could have written your post five years ago. DS didn't get into DAO and Latymer, not even nearly, and it was a real blow to his self-esteem. We hated ourselves for having put him through them especially since they would have been pretty horrible transport-wise.

We then vacillated over doing privates. It's all very well saying do some that are easy to get into, but the only ones a reasonable journey from us that seemed to offer something worth paying for were UCS, City and Highgate.

In the end, he got into two of the three of them and had interviews at all. So from our experience, the independents are easier than the grammars.

So that seems like a positive story. However, I'd argue for something for positive still. All the kids at his primary school have had their GSCE results (they didn't do them of course so it's all a bit weird). And as far as I know (fortunately the weird Covidness meant that people didn't really talk about results) all of the ones who you'd think would do well have done well. In fact the boy that didn't get into anywhere did the best of all (albeit having had a pretty narrow curriculum of reduced options over a three-year GSCE course) - and that's in a comprehensive with 50% FSM, average overall results etc.

The private school where DS goes is great and well regarded etc but I do wonder sometimes whether he'd have done just as well at the local school at no cost, with local friends and being able to walk there. Also the clever kids from primary were treated as stars at their respective schools and chosen for all the enrichment etc, whereas DS thinks of himself as really ordinary and not particularly academic.

Aw, thanks Grammarhopeful, that really helps. As one mum said to me, it's a hateful process! I honestly feel like I shouldn't have worked and should have spent hours more tutoring him, that I somehow got our whole life plan wrong.

Goteam, the catchment for APS and Fortismere is 0.5 Max (0.4 for APS) and 0.8 for Highgate Wood. We are not nearly in catchment for any of those.

How is your son feeling about this? Is he upbeat or does he feel gutted when he once again doesn't get into another school. That would help me decide what to do next.

Have you applied for comps (not sure when the allocations are or if they've happened Yet). The worst case scenario would be that if he has to go to a comp he feels like a failure or that he shouldn't be there as he is somehow superior to his peers (but that depends on how the school thing has been sold to him).

Nerr, he seems ok but a bit quieter than usual. A lot of them from his year applied and one of his friends is high-up on the waiting list. He and DS are in the same sets and have always been very similar in terms of abilities so DS did seem a little upset that he hadn't got through, however, we then remembered that his friend will literally never come to the park after school as he used to always go home for exam prep (this was since year 5) so he felt it was deserved/explainable. I think his confidence will take a bit of a knock but there are enough other kids in his class who are also known for being very bright who didn't get in so he is certainly not the only one.

We have applied for comps but I am hopeful he still has a good chance of at least two other schools including Aldenham.

@cantstopstressing Okay, my error. I thought the intro said 2 hours a week for 18 months. Because DS did this last year, I worked in the office most of the time. I had to put trust in the tutor (why hire a tutor if not trusting them) and DC to manage it all - I was away from home 7 to 7 each day roughly. Except for the day of tutoring when I wfh.

We're neither in Enfield nor Barnet as well but I still think that they secondary schools on offer here are perfectly fine. And that goes for most areas around here (with reservation only because I don't know every single bit).

No, I don't believe for one second that DC is that amazing academically but certain schools played to DC's strengths more than other schools. Also, anyone doing 2-3 hours prep a day and gets in to a selective school, I belive might struggle whilst there.

I don't believe that doing more than you did would have increased the chances. Contrary, too much can cause fatigue in my opinion.

@cantstopstressing but if you have money for private then cant you move to be in the catchment for all of these? I mean you must live near enough.

unfortunately, the reason for all this madness is because people hot house their kids. nobody should do more than 18months of training - thats crazy for you and your child

@cantstopstressing Heartland?

Motherxmas, we very nearly did move but ultimately decided not to as the cost of moving wasn't far off school fees, believe it or not, plus we never found a property we remotely liked.