Missed out on entry to grammar & independent secondaries in London

[cantstopstressing]

Posting slightly in desperation. DS is 10 and we are mid way through applying to a number of grammar and independent schools in North London for admission next year. DS is bright (top set in both Maths & English) at an outstanding state primary and hardworking. We tutored for 18 months in advance of the exams. He did 2 grammar schools in North London and didn't get into top 650 (Latymer) or top 350 for the other one. He has done a couple of independents but we are not hopeful as one was a CEM select test and the timing was extremely aggressive and the other (also a super selective school with 800+ applicants for 75 places) was also very tough and he didn't write much in the creative writing section of the English paper so I am not hopeful that he will get offers from those either.

I guess I am wondering where we (or I) went wrong. Maybe I misjudged how academic he is plus I think, on reflection, doing 2 hours a week with a tutor and past papers up until the last few months where he was doing 5-6 hours per week, simply wasn't enough. I am aware there are kids doing a couple of hours each day. I feel like I have let him down as I don't believe he will get any offers from the schools we applied to and will face a number of rejections which will knock his confidence. As I said, he is top of his class and, although I know there is a huge gap between being good at a state primary and what independent schools will teach, I guess I am still surprised and disappointed that none of these schools are an option for him. Why is it a clever boy can't get a place at decent indie in London?

Thankgod, that is super hopeful and I totally agree with you regarding outcomes at GCSE level where I am very sure that the bright and hardworking kids who go to the local comprehensive will do as well as the kids at grammars. I've already seen it happen with friends where a girl who went to an, admittedly, very good state comp got better results that a friend at a top private. It is hugely reassuring, I agree.

@cantstopstressing we checked out a few areas to move to based on good secondaries (Finchley for Wren Academy and Southgate for Ashmole Academy) but just couldn't get excited about the local areas or housing. We are a good few years behind you though.

I think you're right - there is a huge amount of over the top tutoring, especially in North London. When ds started group tutoring we thought he was a 'shoo in' but had our eyes opened fairly swiftly by the boys/parents in the tutor group. They were hugely competitive, all 'top table' (some with Maths GCSE already at 10 years old). Exam technique and speed were very important too.

We were nearly scared off but ds and we, decided to up the game and it was a couple of hours every night towards the end. Plus interview practice as he was shy. It was very hard work and a total nightmare to be honest but he received offers from Westminster Under, scholarships at a couple of other great schools and received super selective Grammar offers. I would say his CAT scores in Yr 5 were 135+ across the board and that seems to be the level for these sorts of schools. The good thing about the independent schools is you get another chance to shine if you can get through to the interview stage.

There are kids that get in with little tutoring but in my opinion these are few and far between in London. I would also say for anyone else preparing now, book on to the big mock tests, the Sutton one for example as these will give you a very good picture of where your child sits in this crazy over prepared cohort! I'd also say group tutoring might be better than 1-1 as the competition can sometimes be a stimulus.

There are some excellent academic less competitive schools out there if you can pay - the eleven plus exams forum is worth a travel through the forums.

Yep, neither could we goteam. We've been looking around Muswell Hill/APS for years and never found anywhere we vaguely liked plus the cost of moving is not far off school fees for 1 DC. So we stayed. Given my time again I think I would move.

Trawl not travel!

You definitely did enough prep and your DC sounds like he will do very well at GCSE and A - level regardless. Remember those exams are not that hard anymore. It is absurd really - 11plus has become so much more competitive than in our days, but the final exams are actually easier.

Final exams is what counts and just find him a school he will be happy and confident in. I have DCs in superselectives and whilst my DC did not do that much prep, some of the other DCs parents are very “tiger” and to be honest, it isn’t really my scene.

Everything is a constant competition, even the extra curricular stuff which was meant to be fun. I constantly have extra curr teacher ring me to discuss progress! I think this is another reason some people are going for boarding more again, to get away from tiger parents of other DCs in the school and the teachers who feel the pressure too. It really isn’t that great for mental health and long term outcomes. Your DS sounds wonderful. Be proud of him and step away from this ludicrous process.

@cantstopstressing Your son was playing in the park like 9 and 10 year olds should be. His friend has lost out on previous time he will never get back (they go to secondary school and like hanging out by themselves in their room all of a sudden).

You did great with your prep. You have taught him hard work is needed to get anywhere in life but also given him balance in his work / play life. There’s also a life lesson that sometimes things don’t work out the way you wanted, how to deal with that and use it to your advantage in the future. Rejection and failure and how to deal with it are life skills a lot of children are protected from these days.

Take time to sit down with him and talk through all the things he wants from his next school. A string of grade 9 GCSEs probably won’t feature on his list. But it’s honestly such a useful exercise as it helps both you and him focus on what’s really important.

It really WILL be alright in the end.

@cantstopstressing but surely a less than exciting area/house is still better than going through this. Not only all the prep but then the stress around it. Honestly, a bright kid will be fine in most North London schools, but I just can imagine DCs doing this much prep etc. knowing that they will need to do lots for GCSEs and A'levels. And I am absolutely the parent who thinks that only Oxbridge and a limited number of RGs will do (dont shoot me), but two years of prep to compete with other super smart kids at the age of 8-10 seems a little bit too much

precious ** not previous...

can I just say that we pulled out of the 11+ process late in the day because DS simply wouldn't comply with the preparation and we were never going to get his English up to scratch. He goes to an admittedly very good N London comprehensive. His GCSE's are all 8's and he's currently sitting on 4 RG university offers waiting on one where he has been pooled I suspect pending Oxford offers, so one of the top ones. His results and offers are at least on par with, if not significantly better than his privately educated friends. And he has done it without the stress and pressure of a highly competitive enivironment. Maybe his 8's would be 9's but really, does that matter? This is just to say that it's not over your son will be fine

Flipping heck I thought things were bad here in SW London but it looks like North London has the edge in terms of toxic competitiveness. OP I hope it all works out brilliantly for your DS. I am also a strong believer that mental health and resilience are more important than academic success. Without them anyone will struggle, but many people succeed at life without a stellar academic track record.

@cantstopstressing I do feel for you but Latymer at least was highly competitive this year (every year?). Dd1 did scrape through to the top 650, but her friend who was taking it was placed in the 800s & there were only a few points difference in their averages.

We started doing practice papers in May, realised there was stuff on there she had never covered so got a tutor for an hour a week to go over it. She's goes to a standard state primary with the emphasis on creativity rather than academia so am amazed DD1 sneaked through. I honestly think a lot of it is luck on the day, she's top set but not top of her class.

We still won't know if we actually get a place until the summer probably but have a decent state school as back up so really applied for Latymer as a punt.

I definitely wouldn't beat yourself up about not doing enough prep, sounds like DS was well prepared.

If you are serious about wanting an indi outside of Londoners not too late, depending on exactly where of course, you will find very few are full and many have extra bursary incentives to try to fill places as parents have had to pull their kids for financial reasons. Fees tend to be lower and so are house prices. Plenty of friends kids went to the local indi to me and nobody who passed the entrance was turned away, they get a dozen or so a year into oxbridge so it's decent

@Waitingforsunshine
Contrary to what you might think reading Mumsnet, 93% of British kids attend state schools is which less than 5% are selective. Most counties have no selection at all at 11. Unfortunately in London the state grammars are basically rationed by who can afford the most tuition whereas where we lived everyone went to comp or paid privately (but wasn't competitive to get a place at the private school if you could afford it)

@Stokey Your DD will have a great chance of getting a place at Latymer. Last year they only marked the English for the top 500 but I've heard that they had to offer outside of that which is probablythe reasonfor going back to the top 650. I think about 2200 or 2300 sat the exam last year.

In any case, a decent local secondary, is great to have and takes away a lot of pressure. Some people stay with the local school despite getting a grammar place. It has to be the right school for the child after all, whatever the league table says.

@movingonup20 You don't have to lecture me thank you very much. I know the stats very well.

I'm not the one chasing league tables and believe that Ofsted reports give me the information I need to evaluate a school.

The school is about my DC, not about me as many North Londoners believe. The reason for tutoring is that the 11+ tests on the Yr6 curriculum before they've been taught it. Who ever came up with that idea must have been mad. No interview prepping or such - I believed that we had come to an agreement about schools that would suit DC and therefore it wouldn't be necessary. If a school rejected DC because of personality, it wouldn't be the right school.

I know I'm seen as a weirdo for wanting to find a school that suits DC as a priority. But I believe that any child learn better in an environment where they're happy.

Thanks @Waitingforsunshine, that's good to know.

We're not decided either way. Latymer seems like a great opportunity IMO, but she doesn't know anyone who is going there and the journey is far longer so she's not that keen.

Just saw someone up the thread mentioned Forest school in Snaresbrook. That might be worth checking out OP. Their admissions are closed now but they aren't doing exams until January, and were keen to interview first this year due to vastly different experiences kids had had during lockdown, so may still be room for manoeuvre.

@Stokey Well, you only need to decide once you have an offer. From what I know, the North London grammars have lots of children not knowing anyone when they start so the schools are good in handling that. Yes, longer travel is a minus for any school so should be taken into consideration.

I agree with looking at Forest - seems to be a lovely school. Very inclusive and nice premises.

It’s important not to lose sight of the goal to find the right school for your DS. There were a couple of boys at my DCs prep in his year that scraped into moderately academic schools. I can’t imagine that it is much fun always looking over your shoulder to see if you’ll get booted out after GCSEs.
The same thing goes for your bright boy going to a super selective school. It’s no fun going from being on the top table at primary to being at tHe bottom of the year.

And yes, results are extremely important, but the journey to get there Is important too. I want my DCs to be happy for the five years they are at senior school. We chose a slightly less academic school for our DS because we thought it would be better for him. It caused a lot of raised eyebrows amongst parents and even some staff at his prep, but it was the right choice.

I’m sorry if I missed it, but you don’t mention extra curricular. Is he sporty? musical? Into drama? I think the admission process can take that into account. If they have two academically similar kids and one is really keen on drama, the school that values drama will choose him.

And finally, in a practical point, have you looked at the train lines and looked at the schools outside London? If he is bright what about Habs, Merchant Taylors, St Albans?

I've been through this process now with all 3 of my kids and I just want to reassure you that it will be ok. You did more than enough prep and kids do develop at different rates depending on their emotional maturity.

My eldest DC is now in year 12 at a good state comp in South London. She got into all her top private choices, at 11+ but in the end she chose the state option. It has been brilliant for her. The teaching has been incredible and she is being encouraged to apply to Oxbridge. She has the grades.

I have a DS at Tiffin. He is doing well and got into every school we applied to in the private sector and got his first choice state. It's a good school. It's not perfect by any means. In fact sometimes he wishes he had gone to the comp his sister is at. So far he isn't doing nearly as well as she did at his age, and he is just as smart as her.

My youngest DS tanked on the Sutton and Tiffin tests. He panicked. They had to call me to come collect him it was that bad and in the end we decided not to put him through it all because he could get a sibling place at the same comp as his sister. He was having huge anxiety and now He is probably doing better than all of them at his age. Better than the one at Tiffin in truth.

Schools aren't the holy grail. If a school has good teachers and leadership and you are there for your child, which it sounds like you are, they will be ok. And good state schools love bright pupils. They don't leave them to it. They get excited about what they can teach them.

I was consumed by this awful process, but honestly it will be ok.

Just to say good luck for the Aldenham exam! It’s a really brilliant school from what I hear (and we know quite a few pupils there). They push the academic kids, but it’s also a friendly environment for those who aren’t as academic and they have beautiful grounds

Good luck for Aldenham! I’m sorry things haven’t gone your way so far and do appreciate your frustration. It’s lousy not having decent schools as options but do take another look; they may have more merit than you think. Don’t forget you have more choice than those who can’t afford the independent sector.

Converseandjeans

I got into grammar school & I think 10 from my primary got places (90 per year) however we had no extra tuition & no idea really we were sitting 11+.^

Unfortunately those days were over 25 years ago. Dame Alice papers are extremely difficult.^

@cantstopstressing Different part of London but we are going through something similar. It feels especially tough this year as it’s all so drawn out and there have been so many curveballs with changes to timings and formats. We’ve been rejected by a school we thought was pretty much a banker. We thought our child was doing well in practice tests and it really hurts (not him - he doesn’t know and isn’t very invested in the whole process anyway). Don’t have wise words except that you are not alone.

I was rather shocked reading about the amount of tutoring going on in the london circuit. DC has a place in St Paul’s in 2021. Maybe we were naive, but it was the only school we applied for and we thought there would still be time to apply for others if he didn’t get in. We left it to his prep school to prepare him and supplemented with Atom a month before. Is it seriously worth subjecting a 11 yo child to so much pressure? Does the tutoring stop once he gets into one of these selective schools?