State or private

[Mnetter78432]

Hello, wondering if anyone had any advice?
Have a couple of years to decide but it's playing on my mind. Bright child but super interested in all the extra curricular stuff, very good standard in sports, music, drama etc. Local secondary school walkable and good A level results but v narrow focus on core subjects, poor facilities and covers high deprivation catchment area. Independent is in town, 3 miles away, buses v frequent from outside our house. Small school, huge focus on all the extra curricular stuff, not highly pressured academically (although excellent results) good rep for pastoral care.
But, single sex which I'm wary about and financially it would be a squeeze (we have a younger one too who I'd want to send to the same).
I don't think they'd get better results particularly at the independent, I think they'd be fine at either, I just think I'd have been so much happier at school without violent disruptive boys in my class and four to an ancient keyboard, and if this is within my grasp to give to my kids, should I try?

Thanks for reading

I'm a private school parent and don't care about contextual offers - if dd gets AAA in her exams she's going to get to go wherever she wants anyway.

What is a bit strange is that some people will argue that private schools aren’t worth it, you can get the equivalent in a state school, yet on the other hand they support contextual offers because independent school students have an advantage - but what is the advantage if state schools are just as good?

It’s such a complex issue; state schools are not all equal. Where we live, the nearest two schools have high proportions of children on pupil premium (65/70%), lots of troubled families and lots of issues, very little in the way of extra curricular and few parents who would take their children to museums! Dd and ds have gone instead to grammar and private schools (on a bursary). However we’re possibly moving for work when ds goes to sixth form - to a reasonably affluent small town. The comprehensive looks brilliant, wide range of subjects offered, plus lots of enrichment. There’s no comparison to the local schools here.

I have no issue with contextual offers and I hope children round here benefit. Our postcode is in the lowest quintile for the various measures universities use (POLAR etc) and the schools aren’t great. Ironically Dd would be eligible for a contextual offer from Durham due to our postcode. But she shouldn’t need it, as the good teaching and lack of disruption at her independent school and now grammar sixth form mean she should get the results for a standard offer anyway. Hopefully contextual offers will go to those who need them.

Re postcodes, quite a few houses in our village street share the same postcode, but the houses vary from a pretty 8 bedroom Georgian vicarage lived in by millionaires, a farmhouse, some 3 or 4 bedroom modern and old houses and some small council houses.
The wealth of the families living in this postcode varies enormously.

Aren't contextual offers made by school, not postcode?

If there are 4 bed plus houses in your postcode I doubt it would qualify for contextual offers. You can check here:
www.dur.ac.uk/study/ug/apply/contextualoffers/

Generally speaking the areas I’ve put in have come up with the results i’d expect. Where we live now is not particularly middle class or educated.

@MrsMiaWallis all universities do it differently. Some by school, some postcode and some a combination.

You’ll see that Durham want you to meet 2 of the 4 criteria. In our case we meet both postcode ones. So it’s a bit of an anomaly as we’re not in need of a contextual offer but in terms of the area, it’s right I think.

We have one year 7 at private and a year 1 the main reason we chose the private school route was the substantially smaller class sizes and that because of that the focus was around best results for that individual child they are not a straight A* at GCSE school and have a huge range of results among the children but they have the support to do the best they can with plenty of individual teaching

Private if you can afford it.... but having said that, it really depends on the child.

I chose private for both boys, because they just wouldn’t have been able to cope at a state school... low funded, over crowed class rooms, unruly, bad mannered children and not to mention bullying. I just wouldn’t put them through that.

Hmmm, no offence, but that's the kind of generalisation that gives private school parents a bad name! Perhaps your local options were like that, but surely you're not suggesting that all state schools are full of unruly bad-mannered bullies and that these things don't occur in private schools? (I write this as a private school parent.)

@adventageous

Hmmm, no offence, but that's the kind of generalisation that gives private school parents a bad name! Perhaps your local options were like that, but surely you're not suggesting that all state schools are full of unruly bad-mannered bullies and that these things don't occur in private schools? (I write this as a private school parent.)

The private secondary school DS 14 attends, is zero tolerance to the above things, two of his friends have been permanently excluded, not even a generous donation to the school from their parents could save them.

Throughout my children’s school life they have never once experienced any kind of bullying, if I were to send them state, no doubt would they be targets for bullies.

To answer one of OPs original questions I don't think that for a bright child the academic outcome is necessarily the issue. They are likely to get broadly similar results (although there is evidence that some schools offer more 'added value' than others, state as well as private) wherever they go but the experience they have along the way, what they do, the support they get, the pastoral care and wellbeing, that may be different.

Research suggests that parents if you ask who don't currently pay for education to consider a situation where they would pay (e.g. they can afford it, but have been happy with their local state school until lockdown and remote learning), what would be the most important factors in making that decision, they say academic outcomes. Whereas if you ask parents who are currently paying for education what are the most important factors they say all round education, broad curriculum and co-curricular opportunities. Almost the same thing if you look at families who can easily afford private education (value breadth) versus those for whom fees are a stretch (value academic achievement).

I (private school parent and private school employee) don't think that you can pay for or guarantee academic achievement, but it may be possible to pay for a more appropriate environment for your child, whether that's smaller classes, more opportunity, better pastoral care - it depends on the child end the school. Equally, you can find all of those things at good state schools and paying doesn't guarantee any of them either.

From a personal experience, I've never regretted paying for my DDs schooling but the various advantages have varied between the 3 schools they have attended and they have achieved academically more readily where they were better supported and the emphasis on wellbeing. Where we live the state schools that were feasible for us at the time we're rated needs improvement so that had a significant bearing but wasn't the only factor.

Bullying happens in every school, regardless of how strictly it's dealt with (the fact that two children were excluded at your sons' school is surely evidence that poor behaviour does occur there, even if it's rare and sternly handled). Of course it's great that your boys are so happy at school, but how on earth can you know that they'd have been bullied in state?

Small is often not a good thing in private schools IMO.

Extracurriculars are a nice hobby for the vast majority and if a DC wants to do something to a high level, that’s likely to mean after school/weekends anyway, private or state school. So wouldn’t personally give a lot of weight to that.

Working FT is good for other reasons, eg pension, financial independence and security.

Small independent schools are quite often awful IME

My eldest attended a ‘small’ girl’s independent, and I’m amused at the comment regarding them being ‘awful’? Mumsnet is always great a posters hurling generalisations into conversations. Usually based on defending their own choice of course. In reality, it must certainly does depend on the individual child. Our eldest has been super confident, organised, resilient, huge social circle, achieved great grades, 1st choice RG...had bagged herself a lucrative graduate traineeship in her 2nd year and has worked throughout A levels & uni. In short...she’s been hugely successful, and has a vibrant confident personality to boot. How on earth can people make such sweeping comments about small schools??
It simply depends on the child!

Where do grammar schools feature in contextual offers? Presumably if they are super selective, you’d need exceptional grades to be distinguished from the cohort and it would work against you compared to a less academic indie? (Not sure I really understand contextual offers so this could be wildly incorrect).

@1stMrsFatherChristmas “To answer one of OPs original questions I don't think that for a bright child the academic outcome is necessarily the issue. They are likely to get broadly similar results (although there is evidence that some schools offer more 'added value' than others, state as well as private) wherever they go but the experience they have along the way, what they do, the support they get, the pastoral care and wellbeing, that may be different”.

That’s exactly the case. Our youngest is exceptionally bright, qualified with one of the highest scorers for a well known super selective, yet we decided against it as we wanted her experience to be far more than just an academic journey, which is primarily what the state selective would have been. She’s there on a major scholarship, which helps with the fees, and we are definitely one of the ‘poorer relations’ in the school, yet the standard of the upper sets is pretty impressive. She is certainly not alone in that regard, and we personally find it refreshing that the school is not full of blinkered parents dreaming spires for their children, but are more concerned about their children enjoying their education, immersing themselves in the many extra-curricular opportunities and finding their niche in an ever evolving world. Children there are not just academics, and many have other impressive accolades aside. As for ‘contextuals’, we live in one of the ‘poorer’ postcodes..relative to the 8 bed mansion postcodes one mile away...but personally, we won’t be bothering ourselves on that score. We’d rather she gets where she wants to be on merit..which is really how it should be.

@CoveHid as I mentioned earlier, universities differ. If you look at Durham's 4 criteria (linked above), it just mentions a state school, so if you attended a grammar that would count (as long as you fulfilled one of the other criteria too). Bristol have a list of qualifying 'low performing schools' and as far as I'm aware this is the only criteria they use, so grammars are unlikely to be included on their list. Oxford consider your GCSEs in the context of the school you took them at.

Whatever system is used, it's fairly crude, but it's a step in the right direction.

Hmmm, no offence, but that's the kind of generalisation that gives private school parents a bad name!

Advantageous - in fairness there’s plenty of stereotyping of private school pupils on here too.
Apparently they are snobbish, racist, entitled, misogynistic, have no idea how the real world works, and many of them have committed the worst crime in the mumsnet catalogue of crimes:
They are POSH.

Oh yes, very true!

I really don’t see how contextual offers based purely on state schools plus suitably placed post codes..are in any way comprehensively fair. Our local state upper had more high end cars queueing up outside at pick up, than my daughter’s bijou independent! And as a child who experienced a hugely disadvantaged childhood, yet still managed to do well...I strongly believe meritocracy will always be fairest, where academic selection is concerned.

@Andante57

Hmmm, no offence, but that's the kind of generalisation that gives private school parents a bad name!

Advantageous - in fairness there’s plenty of stereotyping of private school pupils on here too.
Apparently they are snobbish, racist, entitled, misogynistic, have no idea how the real world works, and many of them have committed the worst crime in the mumsnet catalogue of crimes:
They are POSH.

Yes. I’d say they are the most fervently stereotyped on here. And as someone who has interviewed & employed many many graduates over the years, from all different backgrounds..I’ve seen enough to know not to comment any more on that here.

Come back @Bertrandrussell we need your input!

Cardiff seem to have a more nuanced weighted contextual approach- various different factors, such as school, postcode, free school meals, parental education etc. are considered.

I totally agree that it can be very unfair. A friend of mine tutors Biology A Level. At one point she was tutoring (individually) the whole class at her local state school - it’s a decent school, in an area with a comprehensive intake but lots of affluent families but it’s still somehow on Bristol‘s contextual offers schools list. Those kids aren’t disadvantaged if their parents can pay for one to one tutoring.

But universities will never have the resources to look at every application on its own merits and work out whether they require adjustment due to genuine disadvantage so this is the best we’ve got.

The thing is - my Dd may get a lower offer from say Durham, but due to her advantage she will probably achieved the standard offer grades anyway, so it’s fine.