State or private

[Mnetter78432]

Hello, wondering if anyone had any advice?
Have a couple of years to decide but it's playing on my mind. Bright child but super interested in all the extra curricular stuff, very good standard in sports, music, drama etc. Local secondary school walkable and good A level results but v narrow focus on core subjects, poor facilities and covers high deprivation catchment area. Independent is in town, 3 miles away, buses v frequent from outside our house. Small school, huge focus on all the extra curricular stuff, not highly pressured academically (although excellent results) good rep for pastoral care.
But, single sex which I'm wary about and financially it would be a squeeze (we have a younger one too who I'd want to send to the same).
I don't think they'd get better results particularly at the independent, I think they'd be fine at either, I just think I'd have been so much happier at school without violent disruptive boys in my class and four to an ancient keyboard, and if this is within my grasp to give to my kids, should I try?

Thanks for reading

Op yes, that’s very true. I’ve often read on here people who hated boarding school - or their OH did - and swear they’ll never do that to their children.
I begged my dc not to go to university as neither were interested in academic work but they insisted.

It’s interesting how we parents often have the uncanny knack of influencIng our children.. by wanting them to do the opposite of what they actually want or do. Probably explains why our youngest is now boarding..and is happier than we could ever wish. The joys of parenting

I would move to a better area in the catchment of a good school

I loathed my boarding school and most definitely wouldn’t send any child of mine to one - but quite evidently it works well for some children and parents. Yes we’re all prejudiced but I think grown up enough to admit our own experiences aren’t universal nor all schools or children identical.

In contrast @Andante57, I begged DD1 not to drop out of University and I’m very pleased that at 26 she’s doing an access course in Computing with the view to going back next year to start a degree in Computing and Artificial Intelligence. So I guess some part of me is a big sad bourgeois conformist, happy she is getting back on the expected treadmill after being a free (largely semi employed) spirit. Perhaps we don’t fall as far from the tree as we think we have!

SJane that’s fantastic that your dd is doing an access course in computing and AI.
She must be very intelligent to do that.
Why did she want to drop out of university?

A combination of a very busy social life, lack of interest in the course & relationship drama’s with her controlling girlfriend meant she was getting little work done. She paints and does graphic art, worked on friends animated films, composed synth music and got very involved with local politics. All good stuff & I’m proud of her but unfortunately all this and part time bar tending & waitressing gigs don’t always pay the rent.

@SJaneS49

should in my opinion receive the same Contextual offer whether her parents are GPS or long term unemployed

In my opinion contextual offers should attempt to remedy disadvantage. The child of 2 GPs is much more likely to have their own room and a quiet place to study, much more likely to have their own laptop and high-speed internet, much more likely to have parents who monitor them in case they start slipping for whatever reason, much more likely to have tutoring for any weak subjects.

The difference in advantages within a true comprehensive is much greater than the difference in advantages between the top of the comprehensive and the bottom of a private.

My girls go to a small girls' school and, whilst it's a real stretch, it's the best money I spend. The school is fantastic - amazing care and brilliant results but it is the confidence it gives the girls that makes the difference. They get so many opportunities and I can see the difference that is making to them. They really thrive in classrooms where pretty much everyone wants to learn and no-one is being disruptive. Most private schools will help you with your second child - I know ours has sibling discounts - and there are bursaries too so whilst it's a big commitment, it's one I really recommend. I'm down in Cornwall and wouldn't change their school for anything.

Forgot to say - single sex is, according to my girls, the best thing ever. they have so many friends and they all really support one another. There's the occasional girl being bitchy but the school resolves issues by getting the girls to think about how they make people feel when they are unkind and no-one is nasty for long. I think it's hard to understand modern girls schools unless you've been in one as lots of people remember them from years ago when they were quite stuffy and old fashioned. Now they are great - really pro-active and I know my girls will have friends for life

@user149799568 you’ve a really valid argument but the reality is that even at the top of a comp, the experience level of the teaching staff is going to be a lot more mixed, more recently qualified teachers and teachers in training. Comps may stream for key subjects (English, Maths, Science) but they won’t for the majority of subjects.A bright student sat in a mixed ability and not all engaged large class of 30 at a Comp isn’t necessarily on the same level playing field as a bright student in a much smaller class in a selective Private with a very experienced teacher. Quite obviously the brightest at the Comp are not going to be those that are always advantaged either.

I’m really not sure how you would go about measuring what is an advantaged child at a Comp either as I don’t think it’s as simplistic as it sounds. If you are going to go on Parental income then there are plenty of low income graduates as well as higher earners without A Levels let alone degrees who may not be able to either work with their DC or have an inclination to pay for tutoring as they may feel academic success is not the be all or end all. Parental Academic achievement? Plenty of graduates in very low paying roles who may not be able to provide individual laptops, study rooms or have the time, ability or money to tutor. Location of the Comp? We’re in a well heeled area and by and large at DDs State parents are middle class but there are some DC from very disadvantaged backgrounds. Similarly, left wing friends of ours with DS’s at a North East London Comp with a high proportion of PP and a few instances of crime have a house worth £1.5million and a household income of over £140K.

This dilemma always comes up when you're one the cusp of affording private. I'm in outer London, so the options are all stressful: selective day schools, crazily superselective grammars, or the local comp and i really don't like what i see in terms of the small but definite presence of disruptive teenagers. Or move to a harder-to-commute area I'm not keen on for the sole reason of being in a comp catchment based on dept of education league results. I only have one chance, no matter what other parents say, i don't want to look back when they're in their 20s and see what "might have happened if they went to that comp"

That said, if your DC are bright (because one of mine is not or terribly unmotivated) and clearly has supportive parents - they will do just fine and most likely thrive there.

*sorry i meant if they went to the private school I could have afforded!

When dd was at our good state comprehensive she had 6 different maths teachers in 2 years. Went private in year 9 and she's had the same brilliant teacher who she really likes for 18 months. Her maths has improved beyond recognition.

Teacher turnover was a real issue at our comprehensive.

As a current university student, I think I could have some insight on this. I went to an 'outstanding' state comprehensive in nice suburbs, and academically I received as good an education as you would get in the private sector, multiple teachers having previously been high up in the treasury taught me economics. Providing the state schools fits in with the type I'm talking about here, academically your child will be at no disadvantage.
However. The massive downfall of state schools is the near complete lack of extra curriculum activities, including no sports culture, which I really feel like I missed out on. Because the only way state schools can compete on their excellence is via grades, they really only focus on this. I dont know what the pastoral care is like the private sector, but my school did nothing to aid me with my mental health issues, which are now look likely to have done irreversible damage to my university education. What I'm saying is that the state sector is absolutely great for providing the a levels they'll need to get to a good uni, but beyond that, they really do not offer much, in my experience.

Student133 makes a really good point. The results from many state schools are fantastic but they just don't have the capacity to offer all the extra-curricular to everyone and it is that access to opportunity that makes all the difference.
We are definitely making sacrifices to make private school happen but I can already see why it is a fantastic investment because the skills it has taught them and the confidence they are gaining will be with them for life.

It’s a measure that can’t even easily be defined by private versus comp all the time. Our daughter’s private school has quite a few bursary students from low income families. As did other schools we’ve had children at. And while our local state grammars do have increasing proportions of PP and English 2nd language students, due to well established 11plus tourism...they also have a sizeable proportion of very affluent families too. Keen to take any ‘contextual‘ advantage where they can. Where on earth can you draw the line? What about children with other disadvantages? Such as major health issues or other non-financially related aspects of their life.

We have a few girls at our school from London whose parents can't quite afford London fees but can afford my daughter's school as it is much cheaper. They board weekly and get all the benefits of living by the coast in Cornwall with things like kayaking and paddleboarding after school. Worth thinking about! Have a look at trurohigh.co.uk - so much cheaper than London.

But then again @Student133 that is your own (valid) personal experience but we’re talking about one particular school here. What additional clubs and activities any State or indeed Private will offer will vary highly school by school. A State with a Sports specialism would have offered a great deal more on the extra curricular Sports front. DDs State school has a Performing Arts specialism and has a more extensive offering than the average Private on that front.

Basically, we’re not talking about always comparing the same Apples and Pears!

I've just had to make the decision, DD is Y6 so secondary application is done. She's bright, hardworking and (currently) very focused on success. She's also massively active with interest based extra curriculars, with 6 a week, and that's where she currently wants to go for a career.

We had a choice of 1. Good (Ofsted good) state 5 minutes walk away. Well liked by parents, most kids from her primary will go. Has been excellent on her interests, is less so atm. 2. Excellent top performing single sex state secondary in nearby town, would take 45 - 60 mins each way to travel, unlikely to get in as they are always oversubscribed. 3. Private. Would involve DH and I upping the ante in terms of work, meaning worse work life balance and less availability for DD.

We concluded that the single biggest predictor of academic success is parental attitude and support given right from the beginning of school. She's got that and will always have it. She has the ability to do well wherever she is and if we're not paying for school we can support with tutoring if necessary. And the local school will give her the time to pursue extra curriculars. So we went for 1. But I have no idea yet whether that was a good plan and I still wake up worrying about it. Good luck with your decision!

@SJaneS49
You're of course correct. The reason I make the point is that, in general from those who've I have spoken to, this is where the main gulf exists. If a state school has a well know culture of football say, then children will absolutely get this benefit, but the odds of them also having performing arts facilities is very unlikely. To make it clear, I certainly didn't feel like I've suffered relative to those who attended private schools, but I had both sets of grandparents and parents reading, taking me to clubs and museums, most people wont have that, so its important you ha e access to reasonable information. If there was an outstanding state school nearby, I'd probably send my kids to one, but you should be aware of what it can and cant do, which is the way my parents looked at this.

On a wider note, it is unfortunate that due to the lack of grammars or selective schools, that ones education is either down to your parents affording a post code or fees.

Apologies @Student133 but while I appreciate you are writing what has been your own experience, there are some rather large generalisations here which really just don’t reflect reality.

“ I had both sets of grandparents and parents reading, taking me to clubs and museums, most people wont have that, ”

Most State school parents of my acquaintance regularly take their children to museums and please don’t assume that these are all middle class graduates either. Half term Facebook pages are full of parents on the obligatory day out in London Science/Natural History/British Museum /Imperial War Museum schlep in the South East, maybe with a show thrown in as well that’s been saved up for.As for regularly reading with children, again hardly uncommon. Club attendance of some sort ditto.

I get your point that a State school with a specialism may not have a huge variety of clubs outside its specialism but thats not to say it won’t have any. Most schools will have some form of sport/drama/musical offerings. Some Private schools (and honestly, it really isn’t universal, some will have a bit of a limited and not great offering)will have a broader range of clubs & activities of course as they sell themselves on their ‘added benefits’. Those benefits though can be found in clubs/tuition outside of school.

@SJaneS49

I’m really not sure how you would go about measuring what is an advantaged child at a Comp either as I don’t think it’s as simplistic as it sounds.

Agreed. A combination of family income, parental education, and personal circumstances are needed at a minimum. I'd prefer that contextual offers take into account all of these things. These could either be explained in the personal statement or possibly in a separate statement requesting a contextual offer. So Emily could receive a boost if she really did attend a dire comp, but not as much of a boost as a child who was from a family of long-term unemployed.

even at the top of a comp, the experience level of the teaching staff is going to be a lot more mixed, more recently qualified teachers and teachers in training.

Your perspective on teachers in a comp is interesting. Many Mumsnetters deplore that fact that indies can have teachers with no teaching qualifications at all.

:-) @user149799568, my teachers in the last two Private schools I attended (a million years ago) were all Oxbridge. To be fair, I’ve friends who teach in the State sector who are hugely experienced but from what I can see locally, it’s a mixed bag. Both DDs State Primary and Secondary have a number of newly qualified as well as teachers on the School Direct route (the latter admittedly not in sole control!). Yes Private schools can in theory take on grads or even a non grad with no teaching qualifications - that’s not the case though in the UK in usual general practice though is it as I understand it? The vast majority have QTS and the Private sector is still paying for the better educationally qualified, more holding Masters Degrees.

And just as an add on, (apologies User 149, I’m on a roll!) I really don’t genuinely believe there is an argument that Emily in her large mixed ability State comp is on a level playing field with Emily sat in her small, selective Private class with excellent support on University access and potential inflation of grades (as Sevenoaks school have been doing). You could also argue that if the Private pupils aren’t advantaged at this stage, why are State pupils outstripping them in degree courses up and down the country when it genuinely becomes a level playing field? I get that from a Private sector parent point of view that Contextual Offers may seem unfair ..but with tongue firmly in cheek here as I don’t completely mean this (honestly), if Private parents were overly concerned about ethics of parity and equality then perhaps they shouldn’t have sent their child to a Private school in the first place!

I agree to some extent about contextual offers, though I think there can sometimes be a question mark over whether someone with a lower grade is going to cope sufficiently well on a degree course, even if their raw ability is high. And in some cases, as has been said, a student at a less good school might have had a great teacher, plus excellent home support, plus maybe a tutor, so their not great grade might actually be a perfectly fair reflection of their ability. It's a very difficult science to get right. As for inflated grade predictions, they happen to some extent everywhere, including hugely in some parts of the state sector. I suspect if students from a big independent school were consistently missing their predictions or underperforming at degree level then the universities would pretty quickly be reconsidering their future offers to its students.