State or private

[Mnetter78432]

Hello, wondering if anyone had any advice?
Have a couple of years to decide but it's playing on my mind. Bright child but super interested in all the extra curricular stuff, very good standard in sports, music, drama etc. Local secondary school walkable and good A level results but v narrow focus on core subjects, poor facilities and covers high deprivation catchment area. Independent is in town, 3 miles away, buses v frequent from outside our house. Small school, huge focus on all the extra curricular stuff, not highly pressured academically (although excellent results) good rep for pastoral care.
But, single sex which I'm wary about and financially it would be a squeeze (we have a younger one too who I'd want to send to the same).
I don't think they'd get better results particularly at the independent, I think they'd be fine at either, I just think I'd have been so much happier at school without violent disruptive boys in my class and four to an ancient keyboard, and if this is within my grasp to give to my kids, should I try?

Thanks for reading

@Mnetter78432

Thanks, if I'm really honest the 'polish' side of a private education does appeal (and I know that won't win me any friends) I think having confidence and being well spoken does make life easier for you, more than A level results or actual acquired knowledge. But I'm not sure it's worth £200k and I know that richer kids aren't without problems. A scholarship would be a possibility for the older one but probably not the younger. Anyway, still a couple of years to decide. Thanks again for all the responses

OP - I know it's not what you want to hear but do you know something? Being well spoken and having confidence and 'polish' comes from home life and you don't have to pay £200k for it. In my ds's group of friends, which includes state educated and those who have gone to top private schools (in London - these are some of the top private schools in the country), you would not be able to tell which school which child went to. They are all well spoken, they all have nice manners, they all have confidence. Sadly, however, you can often pick out the private school kids when the casual racism, homophobia and sexism starts. That's some polish.

No I do want to hear that! I am (relatively) well spoken and confident and find social situations easy. We're quite sensible (boring probably) middle class people and I just want them to be able to maintain that, as it is an easy life.
I totally get that drugs, bullying etc are everywhere.
I think probably the state school and loads of enriching opportunities (we love theatre etc) plus extra curricular (drama classes helped me with my enunciation etc) and being comfortable financially, nice holidays etc will be the best option.
I truly appreciate every single reply and I'm reading them with interest and taking them on board x

I have to agree with the two previous posters. If you are well spoken, it’s likely your children will be too. I also think it’s a bit of a mixed ‘asset’ in today’s world, it really doesn’t always do you favours. On Mumsnet it seems to be an absolute truth that Private schools breed these super confident, purposeful elite which I do think personally is a load of rubbish! Like any type of school, of course there will be confident types but there will also be plenty of clueless, less confident individuals. Just think back to Freshers term at University, how many gauche, less confident with the opposite sex, pretty uncool Private school kids can you think of? Damn sure I was one of them!

Around here..it’s the grammars that have the biggest drug problems. I think there are ‘certain‘ independent schools that have more of a drugs issues, but you can usually gleam a lot from the vibe of a school and the general cohort. Having said that, nowhere is immune!
As for basing decisions for your own children, on the experiences we as parents have had at school, I don’t agree with that. Every child is an individual, and what might have suited you, might be quite the opposite for your child, or their siblings. I attended a large inner city comp, and had a shallow, almost invisible experience. Certainly didn’t emerge in any way confident. I learned that from life itself, and our children will too. But in the meantime, I want my children to be where they feel happiest. And the rest is elementary.

Posted before finishing! Good luck with whatever you do decide - it seems you’re leaning towards the State and giving your DC a breadth of experience outside of school. My DD2 does LAMDA & singing lessons (at her State), we do (or did!) monthly West End trips, Scouts & we do as a family travel a lot both long and shorthaul. I’m really happy that she isn’t missing anything I had out (except Latin and Lacrosse and excessive religion but this isn’t much of a negative!).

DS's state school does the skiing trips, Geography trips to Iceland, Y8 trips to France and Germany, Battlefield trip for History, trip to South Africa, trip for A level History to Washington/NY, trips to Rome for Latin, trips to Spain for Spanish, DoE Bronze and Silver - and this, until two terms ago, was a Requires Improvement school. The school also has rugby and rowing as options. There are some rough kids. It has a very high proportion of kids on FSM and for whom English isn't their first language, but one of the most successful girls in my ds's year was a Somalian refugee who came over at 10, not speaking much English and who has just gone to Cambridge to study Engineering, with 4 A*s. When she lost her place during the whole A level fiasco she spoke to our MP and wrote to Boris Johnson and when CAGS came in she got her place.

There are lots and lots of middle class kids at state schools - you need to remember that MN is a weird, unreal state. Less than 8% of kids are privately educated up to Y11, though the proportion on MN is sky high. With intelligent and, most importantly, engaged parents a child can do anything and everything.

Don't get too hung up on after school activities either. What they are prepared to do in primary does not match what they are prepared to do in secondary and weight of work in any school starts to take out after school stuff. My ds played rugby out of school all the way through til Lockdown put a stop to it in March but he didn't have time for anything else.

Private might well be right for you - but please don't think that it's the only thing that will give your children future options.

@Mnetter78432. I like to use a cooking analogy when I think about middle class families and education. Private is a prettily packaged Charlie Bingham meal that you can pop in the oven and enjoy. It doesn’t in any way make it more superior to a home cooked meal based on ingredients sourced from a wide range of shops (the best organic meat, Aldi basics, Riverford veg box!) cooked with love and attention. However it is easier, especially if you are working to go the Charlie Bingham route. It sounds like you are very much qualified for the ‘home cooking’ however as you are interested, informed, thoughtful, engaged. I suspect you don’t need the Charlie Bingham crutch, as long as you have time to source and cook the best ‘ingredients’. As for the polish thing I am afraid that is a crock of poop cooked up my private school marketing depts and perpetuated on Mumsnet by parents trying to justify their slightly risky financial investment - I know (across generation and very much including kids at school now) children in the private sector with crippling shyness, social anxiety & mental health problems who don’t appear at all ‘polished’. Kids at private school are as varied and human as at any other school, some flourish in the system some are crushed by it most come out pretty average. If you fancy an uplifting read get yourself Kate Clanchy’s ‘Some Kids I Taught and What They Taught Me’, I loved it.

We've gone private. I'm pleased with it but actually don't have anything to compare it with. It is a lot of money. My biggest concern right now is that the state school that many of my children's peers attend (affluent families having 2 holidays a year, skiing etc, often only one parent working and parents paying for tutoring) is benefiting from contextual offers at university level (and frankly more oxbridge offers) whereas the independent school children have to get the highest grades. Not all families that go private are rich. Often both parents are working and a lot of fun stuff is sacrificed. This year, at my children's school, some of the sixth form went back into the state sector. I'm all for contextual offers for the truely disadvantaged but I'm not sure Emily, whose dad is a GP and mums a part time solicitor is actually deserving of it.

As an aside second hand uniform is thriving at our school.

I just think I'd have been so much happier at school without violent disruptive boys in my class and four to an ancient keyboard, and if this is within my grasp to give to my kids, should I try?

Yes. Always yes. I have such fond memories from my non-academic private school. I loved every second. I may have got the same results at the local state school but I wouldn't have loved it as much. My husband went to the local state school, it was in a very deprived area. He got good grade as his parents valued education and he's bright.
But he was MISERABLE. Hated it, hated that there was no equipment for sports, hated the violent, disruptive children...

Our children are at the "cheap" local private. It's not an Eton feeder but it has big emphasis on all the extras, the experience and the attitude of success. It isn't academically pushy but it gets good marks.

The absolute overriding thing for us is that the children are HAPPY and that's worth everything to us. If you can afford it, they how can you even question giving your children that happiness. Life isn't about the destination or purely the grades. It's about the journey.

@bs9er. Contextual offers are step 1 in the Conservative Government's commitment to slowly make private schooling a thing of the past. Or as Bojo termed it - 'An eccentric choice'. However what many private school parents don't realise is that they are offered based on where your children take their GCSE's not their A Levels. So these parents are gaming the system without truly understanding the rules by removing their children for sixth form. Whichever route taken (Private or State plus tutoring) it is still middle class children who are benefiting, I really, really hope that in my life time we see a system where all children benefit from education equally, but I fear I may be an idealist. Still, we need the odd idealist don't we?

@bs9er, “ I'm all for contextual offers for the truely disadvantaged but I'm not sure Emily, whose dad is a GP and mums a part time solicitor is actually deserving of it.“

I’m pretty sure I’m not going to be the only one who disagrees with this! Just taking the usual arguments on here for Private - small classes, experienced & well qualified teachers (attracted by the better pay) and often selective entrance, it’s not a level playing field. Yes of course some State schools outperform Private’s but Emily at the local Comp which achieves average results in a mixed ability class of 30 being taught by a mixture of experienced and newly qualified teachers should in my opinion receive the same Contextual offer whether her parents are GPS or long term unemployed. Would you suggest parents are means tested?!

OP - Private if you can comfortably afford. Otherwise state, grammar if you live close to one. Otherwise, choose from the local comps. Sending our kids to state grammar enabled us to save and to move home 2 years into grammar school.

Absolutely agree with Insertfunnyname.

I got great academic results at a shitty comprehensive. I was miserable there. Loads of bullying; loads of kids who were bored, didn't see the point of school, and just caused trouble all the time.

Obviously that's just my personal experience. My point is that, according to some criteria, this was a success story. My grades and university destination couldn't have been any better if I'd gone to a private school. My childhood, confidence, and happiness, however, were all adversely impacted by the school I went to. It's the journey that matters, not the destination.

I have a DD, and moved her from state to (single sex) private school. It was a "naice" state school and she wasn't unhappy there. But she has absolutely blossomed in the new school and is much more happy and confident. And she LOVES that there are no badly behaved boys taking up all the teacher's time and attention.

‘ The absolute overriding thing for us is that the children are HAPPY and that's worth everything to us. If you can afford it, they how can you even question giving your children that happiness.‘

I appreciate your DH had a rough time @Insertfunnyname and obviously you feel you’ve made the right choices for your own DC and it is working for you. But it does rather predispose that Privste’s are the route to Happiness which really does depend both on the child and the private school in question. My DH also went to a rough Comp (in South London) & also did well academically- in contrast he has very happy memories of his school, he was Head Boy and is still in touch with a number of his old friends. So again, it’s purely about the child and the school in question. Admittedly we live in a well off area with very few PP pupils at DDs State school but she is happy and there isn’t much of a delinquent element a all and the equipment & availability is very good (they even have an in-house cinema).

@flourandeggs the cooking analogy is lovely and thank you for your encouraging comments.

And to the others re facilities, that's where I'm torn. We already have our dream home and decent pensions. I've just started work again and so my salary is a new addition and would cover fees, which is why it'd be a consideration. It just feels selfish of me to keep that money for flash holidays and send them to a run down school.

Is the school in question really run down and if so are there better equipped schools? At the end of the day though if the teachers are good, the results are strong and high expectations are the norm for pupils personally I’d wonder if the odd old portacabin or two really mattered? Personally I see a great deal of benefit to children from travel and something we do invest in - it really does open up their eyes to different ways of living, history, culture, politics, geography, ethics and wildlife.

It's very run down with a very narrow curriculum but exceptionally high a level results, oxbridge/rg destinations and it's 15 minute's walk

@Mnetter78432 flash holidays? .. you don’t seem the type from what I read. Trips to Rome, the pyramids, The Atacama desert - if you read those in a school prospectus what would you think? So do them for your family. Specialised music tuition, LAMDA, sports clubs...( I am a sports coach at a club and we are inundated with indie kids because the coaching is better at the club.) What about when your child asks for some financial help when they want to do a PhD, or to buy their first house, or some help so that they can stay at home comfortably for their first year of being a Mum. There are a myriad of times when you might question your choices as a parent and wonder if you are doing the right thing and it isn’t going to stop when they are 18. What if you put all your financial eggs in a basket for the first part of being a parent and then can’t help later? Parenting is not a sprint it is a marathon and you cannot spend on school fees thinking that their imaginary future salary will cover the things you might have liked to help with as that just isn’t the case, most ex indie kids earn pretty averagely it is the small percentage you hear about who go on to high salaries that can then perpetuate the lifestyle choices they were bought up with. What about the inherited burden you will give to your children that they too must provide fee paying education (if it is still a ‘thing’) because it was done for them. Do you want them to choose a career and number of children they have based on being able to provide what was done for them? Flash holidays and cars are the thing that are bandied about that middle class parents do with money they don’t spend on fees - we have crap cars and take our kids on language trips, historical trips, skiing trips, sports experiences, museums, galleries, giving to charity and inputting time to community, and most importantly saving for our children when they face the greatest test of their lives - adulthood! Make your lives like the private school prospectus that you wouldn’t be able to resist and pocket the difference for the your children’s secure adulthood.

Very nicely put @flourandeggs!

@flourandeggs your responses are so thoughtful they're making me cry! How reassuring you are. Without giving too much detail I come from very difficult circumstances and have been independent from a v v young age, so it's lovely to have a reassuring voice. And yes you're spot on about the holidays and cars, flashy is definitely not my style!

@Mnetter78432. You sound like such a lovely, thoughtful, fab Mum I hate the thought you are questioning yourself. Do have a read of Kate Clanchey’s book it is so wonderful and I shed many tears so that the pages are a bit crumpled and too embarrassing to lend out! I often think to myself that education posts very rarely make the top read threads on Mumsnet, and for a very good reason - education is really such a small part of real life, and yet in this country we middle class folk have been groomed to obsess over ‘education’ more than ‘childhood’ or ‘wellbeing’ - probably why we rank so low internationally in the ‘happy children’ research!

@bs9er - completely agree regarding the contextual offer chasers. Some parents at our last prep, wouldn’t even consider private for this reason. One parent even announced..supposedly tongue in cheek...that as they ticked the ethnic box too..Oxbridge was half in the bag! Just needed to work on the kids coming up to scratch. Which they did with blatant fervour!! Why people would be thinking like this at primary school..is beyond me!
Our child is very bright, and my in-laws think we are mad. Their state educated children are both now Oxbridge, and chose a school specifically primed for contextual advantage. They didn’t want to take any chances..and although they were undoubtedly bright children, they have literally spent their entire childhood focussed on academics, and very little else. It’s like the be all and all for some, and success has many different measures. Our greatest success will be happy, well rounded, broadly educated children...and we chose our schools solely on that basis.

@flourandeggs - that’s a sensible way to look at it, and if I had read a post like this, while deliberating over our own choice at the time, it would have made me feel quite bad that we were considering spending our equity on school fees, and not saving it for our children’s future rainy days. And that’s where I see things differently. I had a tough upbringing, inherited zilch and started my own life from scratch. As a family we suffered loss on many levels...and as such, truly understand the concept of living for today. Not living for a day in future time that might never come. My husband grew up in a far more privileged background, and he too has started his own life from scratch. So we both decided that our children’s happiness and experience of life ‘today’..was far more important. Our eldest is now an adult, earning good money and very independent. Well rounded, happy and had a fantastic education. What’s not to like about that? Is she worried about the fact that we might not be able to fund her future in some substantial way? No..she’s too busy working towards that herself, and knows that we have given her the best gift any parent could give. For us, it would have felt selfish not to do otherwise. I guess we all feel very differently on this. But that 7 years at secondary, is quite a long and formative time....

@Schoolmummmy
"Our greatest success will be happy, well rounded, broadly educated children...and we chose our schools solely on that basis."

We both had the same aim then, we just chose schools from different sectors. I have happy, joyful, well rounded, bright well educated state school kids (don't get me wrong they are human, so have all the appropriate faults and issues that go with that status, but generally they are happy souls.)
Call me dull, I also like knowing there is some leverage in the bank account for the next 70 years of their life.
Aren't we middle classes lucky to have the choice? And perhaps don't guilt out the OP that a private education is the best 'gift' that you can give a child. Humility, charity, empathy, forgiveness, community spirit, work ethic, consideration, communication skills, awareness, understanding, eye opening travel can all be 'gifted' to children from places besides a British fee paying school, otherwise how on earth would the world keep on turning?

Having done a whole mix of schools, I can confidently say private schools are only worth the money if you go to a very good one with high academic standards. If they are just jolly with a pool it is absolutely not worth it IMO - a good state will have good teachers and will do a good job. If you have nice middle class children they will find the other nice middle class children and it will be fine.