State or private

[Mnetter78432]

Hello, wondering if anyone had any advice?
Have a couple of years to decide but it's playing on my mind. Bright child but super interested in all the extra curricular stuff, very good standard in sports, music, drama etc. Local secondary school walkable and good A level results but v narrow focus on core subjects, poor facilities and covers high deprivation catchment area. Independent is in town, 3 miles away, buses v frequent from outside our house. Small school, huge focus on all the extra curricular stuff, not highly pressured academically (although excellent results) good rep for pastoral care.
But, single sex which I'm wary about and financially it would be a squeeze (we have a younger one too who I'd want to send to the same).
I don't think they'd get better results particularly at the independent, I think they'd be fine at either, I just think I'd have been so much happier at school without violent disruptive boys in my class and four to an ancient keyboard, and if this is within my grasp to give to my kids, should I try?

Thanks for reading

Unless you have so much money you can confidently afford it that us, in which case jolly with a pool and average A levels might suit you.

@flourandeggs - my reference to the ‘best gift any parent could give’..was with reference to the concept of education..regardless of how we choose to educate our children, or whether we choose state school or private. It certainly wasn’t intended to guilt trip anyone. By the same measure, suggesting it would be foolish to consider spending your children’s future pot of rainy day cash, could be construed to be a similar ‘guilt inducing trip’ for anyone also considering this. It works both ways..whatever we choose, we all make that choice with the very best intentions at heart for our children.

@Mnetter78432. One more thought before my gang get home... someone very wise once said to me ‘the grass is greener where you water it’. If you choose the state option, buy the library a book each month, volunteer, fundraise for sports equipment - put your intelligence and thoughtfulness into helping the wider school community, make that grass green and beautiful. Your children will thrive there I am sure. I would pay for my childrens’ comp if I had to that is how pleased I am with who they are becoming, what they are experiencing and what it is setting them up for in life.

@MrsMiaWallis - some grammar schools around us have ‘average A levels’, as do some of the independents. That’s principally down to ability of the underlying cohort, and how well that cohort is selected. Teaching can only achieve so much. In our case our independent choice had broadly similar results to the grammar, but with a much less narrow focus on academics, and a huge array of extra curricular..as well as that jolly nice swimming pool...it’s hard to compare. So if your child is happier in that all-inclusive environment, and doesn’t want to be dragged around after school clubs, with kids she doesn’t really know..and doesn’t feel like a failure for not having completed their obligatory 10 hours of homework a week..then it’s hard to ignore. As with everything in life, it’s very much horses for courses.

I go into a lot of schools due to projects that my employers do.

I think behaviour management is much better than when we were at school. It's not perfect, but comprehensives are not the no-go areas some were a generation ago.

Having said that, mine went to a comprehensive (Outstanding) where, yes, there was the occasional bringing of a knife into school. The kids who were not involved were quite simply, not involved, and the school produces great results across the ability groups. Sends a lot to Oxbridge, The Kings Maths School, BRIT and top RG UNis.

The top sets are properly diverse and reflect the local community in terms of socio-economic position and ethnicity. (S London)

The inequality comes because the middle class kids get polish, confidence and poise from their parents.

There is a fair bit of mixing with kids that go to the local private schools, because they know each other from primary, or being local, or scouts or whatever - and I have to say that from what I have seen behaviour wise out of school, the privately educated are not better behaved. Especially wrt drug use and drink.

As PP have said, You have to compare your particular schools.

Local friends within walking distance has worked well for my kids.

In our case our independent choice had broadly similar results to the grammar, but with a much less narrow focus on academics

If it's not selective, then it's doing well to have grammar school results.

Sadly, however, you can often pick out the private school kids when the casual racism, homophobia and sexism starts. That's some polish

What a horrible thing to say, and ignorant too.

@Schoolmummmy weirdly, as toddler's can testify, the best part of a gift can be the box it is in, not the gift itself. The best thing about my jaw droppingly expensive education was actually the bullying, the anorexia and the utter worthlessness that I felt as part of a very elite school that had social rules that I couldn't comprehend and measured success based on 'who' you were born not 'what' you were - for those awful experiences led me to counselling as a very young person and helped me become, both emotionally and professionally, the person I am. It sounds like you had the same sort of experience at the other end of the education spectrum, and similarly it led you to become who you are. But a true education can never be bought or given as a 'gift' like you say - you can buy lessons and teachers and experiences, but education goes so far beyond a school or a time in life or even a teacher and at its best it is still a fluid process until the day you die - it is often more to do with how you approach life, the depths that you might plummet to and how you rise from them, and you can't ever actually buy that. And children experience the same experiences in ALL secondary schools (bullying, mental health, self harm, anxiety, depression, drug use, weight issues) and it is what they do with that which creates who they become. Please read Kate Clanchey's Book which I keep raving about, for you more than many people it might ring bells, as it is a testament to the fact that it doesn't matter who you are or where you go to school, it is the salt of your soul that marks you out as special.

To be fair, nearly all of my friends are very bright, University educated from the entire range of schools, but the only ones who are really well off have been gifted property. (I'm early 30s). They'd probably benefit more from £100k house deposit rather than a private education. They are both (exceptionally imho) bright so likely to get into universities and decent jobs no matter where they go, but they're unlikely to earn 100k more from private education in the early years when they're looking to buy a house.

@flourandeggs I’m sorry to hear about your experience at this school. Elitism is never a good thing, and I’m sure there must have been many schools that bred this kind of behaviour. I think it’s safe to say that pastoral provision was generally non existent in some schools back then..well in my day certainly I would hope that most schools nowadays, place it in much higher regard. The issues I experienced at school, were certainly not as severe as you describe, but I certainly wasn’t particularly happy..or enlightened either. I guess that’s why I feel so strongly about this for my own children. Choosing schools was an expedition of some great thought & financial angst, and turning down the grammar that seemed so highly regarded, gave us sleepless nights for sure. But in our heart it hearts we just couldn’t see her there. Every visit reinforced our decision..it just seemed tired and uninspiring, and far too focused on grades. We wanted more..she wanted more. For the right child, it is a great school. Just as it is with the school we eventually chose. In our heart we know it’s right for her, and that’s all any of us can do. I’m glad your children are happy and doing well, it’s wonderful when you feel you’ve made the right choice.

The eating disorder thing terrifies me, they are rife in a lot of the girls' schools round here.

Absolutely to supporting the school, we have an outstanding primary where me and like minded parents chip in and help out.

We're lucky that we have lots of excellent clubs etc with professional facilities which are actually better than the private schools (they're full of private school kids) so in reality any school facilities wouldn't compare.
I realise through writing this that we are in a really fortunate position.
Obviously as well, my kids are currently in a huge state school and thriving. Secondary seems terrifying and unknown but in reality we'll know people going there and there is likely to be like - minded people there.

If you have lots of facilities already which are better than your private schools then its a bit of a no brainer?

With private education you get what you pay for to be honest.

@MrsMiaWallis

Sadly, however, you can often pick out the private school kids when the casual racism, homophobia and sexism starts. That's some polish

What a horrible thing to say, and ignorant too.

Not ignorant in any way whatsoever. For a start I went to private school and know lots of people who went to private school and lots of my friends have/had kids in private school. Having been the team manager for my ds's rugby team for several teenage years it was always the private school kids who had to be sent off for homophobic bullying, racism or some pretty foul things said about women. Don't believe that under that lovely posh exterior always lurks something cleaner than clean. They swear, take drugs, and say foul things like teenagers all over - Lord knows my ds swears loudly at computer games but neither he nor his friends would ever say anything racist, homophobic, transphobic or against women - but sadly some are more prone than others and the level, particularly of casual racism and homophobia, is really depressing amongst private school kids.

I was really shocked a couple of years ago to be on a bus where boys from one of the top London day schools were watching porn on their phones and saying disgusting things about women. Don't think it doesn't happen just because they have a more expensive schooling.

I sent mine privately and I wish I hadn't

Maddy68 what do your dcs think? Do they wish they hadn’t gone to private school?

@mimbleandlittlemy - that’s quite a harsh generalisation, and certainly not something we or our children have encountered. For starters, our children’s respective private schools were all quite diverse, in every sense of the word! Friendships were and still do, embrace that diversity in every way. Must be quite a select few you are referring to.

Unfortunately I think homophobic bullying is not in common amongst teenage boys and to a lesser extent girls across all school sectors. It’s unpleasant and something they grow out of. It’s something schools and parents aren’t doing enough to squash - it’s damaging too for DC who are aware they are different and hear the word ‘gay’ used as something that’s weird, odd, less than. My 26 year old bisexual DD1 had a fair bit of name calling at her State school from a small group (which she dealt with) but DD2 who is 12 regularly talks about the boys on her school bus who go to a Super Selective Grammar and a well known Indie slagging each other off as ‘being sooo gay’.

This is going off thread so I’ll finish it here but as the parent of a LGBT child (now adult) teenage homophobia is neither a State or a Private school issue, it is still a societal problem. Better than it was than I was a teenager for sure and I suspect in centres like London it’s less of an issue but we’re not there yet!

Uncommon not incommon!

Humility, charity, empathy, forgiveness, community spirit

Flourandeggs yet you think it acceptable to sneer at, and encourage your children to sneer at, anyone with among other things a labrador or who wears gilets or who’s in the army?
That doesn’t sound very charitable, humble or empathetic.

@Andante57. Gosh you were really triggered by that a few weeks ago - guessing you must have voted Brexit and have a lab, been in the army and like gilets. Yup, totally imperfect here and like I said on that thread, my way of dealing with my family voting for Brexit. I think I already apologised for offending you, but once again, I am sorry for using humour to get over my dismay at what my family had done.

Nothing like flogging a completely dead horse eh @Andante57

😲

@Andante57 I was thinking over what you said whilst having supper & I really was not teaching my children to sneer, at the very worst to have a giggle. And (not including you in this even if you did tick the Brexit box) the people that I was angry at, who I explained were my extended family-in-law are without doubt the most sneering, homophobic, racist, snobbish, sexist people I have met. Not because of their schooling but because of their family. So yes I did use humour to try and deal with the deep anger I felt post 2016 when they voted for Brexit on racist grounds (I’m not racist but... they are fond of saying). Many many people had very good reasons for voting for Brexit and I respect them, these particular people really did not. One of them calls black people ‘non swimmers’ have you ever heard something so awful? So sneering? So hateful. As we talked about on the previous thread having people in your extended family who are so awfuly racist makes life complicated and it isn’t as simple as removing them from your life especially when grandchildren are involved ... so how do you teach your children that they are hideously wrong for being so rascist? A bit of humour, some mild a stereotyping was what I did. However I really did go away and think about what you said a few weeks ago and we haven’t used the word ‘gammon’ since with the children. So I put my hand up and said I was wrong and went away and thought about it and moved my actions on. How about you... you seem to pop up from the sidelines to criticise people now and again but you don’t put your heart and soul on here like lots of posters, you seem to like to watch debate and criticise but not truly engage with it. How do you advise the OP re her original post?

How do you advise the OP re her original post?

Hmm.....well personally it would come down to finance. If the op could afford it easily then I’d suggest independent.
However she’s got another child and she says the fees would be a squeeze.
Private school fees seem to go up every year way beyond inflation - I don’t know why this is the case - and there is nothing worse than having constant stress about money. (There’s a good description of it in D.H.Lawrence’s short story, ‘The Rocking Horse Winner’). It ruins everything and puts strain on marriages and this affects children negatively.
So were I her I’d send the children to the local state school since there’s a widely held view that it’s support from parents that has the most effect on educational outcomes.
Both mine went to well regarded public schools but neither ended up at good universities (I won’t say where as people are loyal to their and their children’s universities) because they took advantage of the excellent extra curricular stuff but didn’t do enough academic work.

Flourandeggs I’m sorry that your in laws have such unacceptable views.
I don’t know how old your children are but I guess it won’t be long before they point this out to their grandparents in no uncertain terms.

I suppose it's easier when you've had something that you didn't rate to not give it to your children. I went to two RG unis and one ex poly, the latter was my favourite so I wouldn't place huge value on a top uni. Whereas because I went to Grange Hill I feel like I should give my kids the option of Hogwarts.