Secondary choices - middle class angst

[Wincher]

Name changer here, been on MN donkey’s years...

We’ve just done my eldest’s secondary application. We’ve gone for the local company - it’s 5 mins walk away, has rave reviews from parents I know with kids there, seems really welcoming and inclusive. Ofsted Good. Not great results, about 43% 5 good grades, basically in line with national average.

I just keep worrying that we’re not doing the best for my child and I need some sense knocked into me by MN. Both DH and I were privately educated. We are now very comfortably off. We were lucky enough to buy in London zone 3 before prices went crazy and we have a small but comfortable terraced house in a slightly grotty area a mile from the tube. We could afford something bigger in a better area but we have a brilliant group of friends here and our whole life is here. We could also - probably not as well as moving - afford private school for both our kids. But DH is against it in principle and it does seem like a crazy amount of money to spend - at £18k per year or so that’s the best part of £100k for each child just to get to GCSEs. Plus there’s the not minor point that my eldest is bright but not outstanding and really we should have been tutoring him for the last two years if he was going to stand a chance of passing entrance exams.

But I do really think private would suit him - he’s not bothered about being with his friends, he’d love to learn Latin, he’s little and got a posh accent and I worry he’ll be ripped to shreds in a big London state comp.

I think as the deadline for applying to private schools approaches (1 dec I think) I’m just worrying whether Sending him to the local school is really us doing our best by him. People say bright kids will do well wherever they go but is that really true? We still have a couple of months before the exams would be, we could intensively tutor him until then?!

Please tell me I’m being ridiculous and he will do well at the local school! I need to stop the yearning for rugby fields and wood-panelled halls.

@Wincher It is difficult for people to advise as we do not know what your school options are.
we haven't been educated here so were really going for state co-ed for our CD all the way as it is the norm where we come from, but our eldest DC are now in single sex private secondary (after primary state coed) !!
our secondary state options just did not compare unfortunately it was either too much caught into discipline/disruptions/basic academic or grammar schools quite far away.
Our private school is both nurturing, friendly and progressive. the adults are very hands-on and inspiring. The offer is impressive, it's over 40% BAME and just under half of the kids have some help through bursary or scholarship, including 10% who don't pay at all. Social mobility is high on the agenda as well as kindness, hard work, applying yourself and giving back to the society. very few have posh accents and all parents we know are very hard working and grounded. it does feel like the best of both world and certainly miles away from some of the private schools described above.
our DC do have a nice time and access to lots but they are working for it (as we are), the expectations are high and I am just glad we are able to give them that now, as we don't know what their life thereafter will be like. so they may as well enjoy those few years and leave school with a positive and confident view of the world rather than having already fought their way through.
I think there is a huge range of schools out there and only you know what you have access to.
With regards to topping up a state with tutor and private lessons etc, yes of course, but in our experience teenagers are more likely to try things in their school with their mates than in some outside clubs they have never set foot in and where everyone has been going for years on, more over we found that the private offer dries up a bit at secondary school as a lot of these activities will be done at school so just stopped altogether, so less options for primary (where we live there are lots of art club for primary, none for secondary kids, unless 1 to 1 lessons). Finally, while it's very easy to top up with tutoring in primary it's more complicated to top up at secondary school level where you have a lot more subjects that requires specialist teaching, to potentially rebellious teenagers, who just don't want extra hours of tuition !
At the end, it's never easy decision and things change.
There is a little time and some schools take later applications. you could also give the comp a try and revise next year, places come available in year 8 & 9, but you will need a willing DC and husband. Good luck ! you want to do what is best, and that is what matters, you will eventually succeed in the way that works for you and your family.

Wincher I didn't see your email that was taken down but think I know the schools you're thinking about. I was amazingly impressed by the local comp when we looked round in Y5, not just the music provision, but general engagement of the pupils and relationships they had with city firms to provide mentoring. I would have put it higher up our list but it is further away from us than two others which Dd1 was keen on.

In terms of the local private school, the grounds and facilities are amazing, but if I were to spend the money I think I would go somewhere more academically high achieving. But I do know children that are very happy there and have done well in their exams.

It is a hard decision.

43% 5 good grades would be a cause for concern for me. If private is an option, I would explore further.

@montlieu. You could have been writing about our local comp when you wrote these words and it made me realise how blessed we are.
"is both nurturing, friendly and progressive. the adults are very hands-on and inspiring."
" as kindness, hard work, applying yourself and giving back to the society. Very few have posh accents and all parents we know are very hard working and grounded"

To be fair, it’s wrong to dislike people because of their accents. You would never dare write that about Welsh or South London accents. Or what about Nigerian or Australian accents? Why are “posh” accents a no no? I know accent criticism isn’t against the law but it’s teaching DC that some people you might encounter are unacceptable due to the way they speak. That, to me, is discriminating and shows a closed mind. Why not accept people for who they are? They might be kind, caring, work for charities or the NHS and even give big amounts to charity! Just be generous towards them maybe? You don’t need to call anyone out due to their accent.

@PresentingPercy I was quoting @montlieu who was writing about parents at her private school. The only slightly naughty terminology we use with our children is the word ‘gammon’ which we use to sum up the entitled brexiteers we meet in our part of the world but I figure that is ok as it is a very different generation!

:-) I agree that it does encourage a closed mind. As something I’ve experienced most my life, it really doesn’t do you a lot of favours quite a lot of the time. As I’m sure others would agree, it often pigeon holes you as soon as you open your mouth. People I don’t know will make a whole load of assumptions about my background (which may be correct), politics & views (usually wrong, I’m a bolshy leftie!), likes (I hate skiing, get Ill on boats, don’t much like horses) etc. It’s all very short sighted and idiotic. But to be honest, there are instances when it does do you favours, I’m sure I was recruited by one company because I sound a certain way.

I’m sure that many of us whether we’re what my mother would call ‘well spoken’ (like the alternative is badly spoken 😟) or have say a Northern, West Country, Scouse accent etc can say that we’ve had absolutely moronic assumptions made about us from our accents - whether that’s ‘privileged’, ‘thick’, ‘hick’, ‘working class’ or whatever. We all judge people but It’s symptomatic of our still class ridden society that labelling people by their accents is still endemic. Agreed we should encourage our DC to actually find out who someone actually is before making any kind of assumption about them.

@flourandeggs, I think gammon is perfectly acceptable!!

I am sorry if I offended anyone
I was just trying to say that not all private schools have people speaking in a certain manner, generally described as "posh"
this particular comment coming from a non-native speaker with a non British accent which sometime helps, sometime does not help at all !

Agree about not making assumptions based on accents (or appearances etc). Those kinds of assumptions contribute to the whole school problem I think - or perhaps the assumption that people will make assumptions! It's like a PP saying that OP shouldn't get her son a Latin tutor if he goes to a comp, as it won't help him to 'fit in'. Is that actually true though? Is it true that someone with a posh voice will get 'ripped to shreds' at a comp? I don't know. But those assumptions are presumably partly what keep some MC families doing whatever they can to send their children to grammars and independents.

I think its more of a culture thing to keep children from this generation going to schools the parents know and where their friends send DC. Its a safety blanket. Private or state.

For what its worth, DD (who might be considered posh by some) represents all kinds of people in the family courts. Some are Roma families. No-one should say they won't accept someone else because of ethnicity, language, culture etc. You should do your best for them - no matter what. It just gets to me that people with different accents are seen as unacceptable. Get to know them before judging.

@coolingbreezes “ Is it true that someone with a posh voice will get 'ripped to shreds' at a comp? I don't know.”

No, not in my experience anyway but that might depend on the area. DC usually have the accent of their parents. London friends DC at States sound like them, not ‘posh’ (I hate that word! No genuinely ‘posh’ individual would use it either) but definitely not Grange Hill either. My sisters 4 DC and my 2 (all State educated) all have toned down versions of our accent. None of them have ever been teased about it from my knowledge.

A lot of assumptions are made about the backgrounds of children at State but in reality they come from all kinds DD2s current best mate is called Cordelia for Gods sake!

I hope the next generation is less judgy than ours about all kinds of ‘other’. It worries me in the U.K. that we seem to be becoming more rather than less close minded!

‘No genuinely ‘posh’ person would use it to describe themselves either’ that should have read.

A private/public school education will buy you self assurance and the feeling that you deserve to exist and you deserve to do well.

If you both went to private schools, went to good universities, and you have family whom you see often who are well educated and spend time in places that your average state school kid won't, your child will be fine. If your mum went to Oxford or Cambridge, for example, you're going to feel that there's no reason you couldn't. State school gives you the added advantage of learning how to exist alongside people who are different from you.

There is no doubt that going to private school will on average give you an easier life but not necessarily a more successful or happier one.

I agree with your second point more than your first plantsitter. I think that 'class' background is more important in instilling that sense of confidence than the school itself. I doubt there are many children who go to private schools who don't already have that confidence baked in by their upbringing.

:-) I disagree with both of you! Plenty of nervous, shy, unassuming DC at Private’s and from the non working class!

Yes maybe coolingbreezes. Not always easy to separate the 2.

SJaneS48 I don't doubt it but I think it's about something deeper than shyness/nerves. More about your place in the world being a given, if I'm explaining properly. I don't see self-assurance as a bad thing either, quite the opposite in fact. It's a very useful thing to have and not synonumous with self-inportance.

@ThePlantsitter now that 93% of children go to state schools surely they will feel fairly comfortable with their place in the world as being part of a vast majority. Very different in the old days when more middle class children went private but now the vast majority of senior schools are propped up by children whose home is in another country. The two of my children who go to our local comp are brimming with confidence, love debating, doing assessed speeches, taking part in a huge range of activities inside and outside of school... they seem pretty sure of their place in a modern society - the society they will create is going to look very different to the one we grew up in and it is going to look very very different in 10 years once universities and employers are under more and more pressure to recruit from diverse backgrounds.

@ThePlantsitter surely deserving to exist is something you can’t buy? Do only privately educated people feel they deserve to exist? Again I find myself agreeing with @SJaneS48 I had tons of nervous, anxious friends at both my day and boarding school who absolutely haven’t found their place in this society you talk about and do very run of the mill jobs and don’t have any sort of confidence or self assurance and many ended up in therapy like I did. Private school can actually make some children feel very at odds with their place in society. My school was rife with eating disorders and bullying and peer pressure... no different to any other place where teens are educated.

I agree with you @flourandeggs! I can think of numerous now adults who fit that description. I can also think of one pupil (the Head Boy at my Day, bright, sporty, gorgeous!) who brimmed with assurance at school, went on to Cambridge and when I met him in my 30’s had ‘dropped out’ and was working at a pub in Putney!

flourandeggs as with all these things one can only really use one's own personal experience - and mine is that the people I know who had a private education are in general more assured of themselves and have more influential jobs. I can see that saying 'right to exist' is not really right, does 'right to take up space in the world make more sense'?

However when you say

the society they will create is going to look very different to the one we grew up in and it is going to look very very different in 10 years once universities and employers are under more and more pressure to recruit from diverse backgrounds.

I WANT to agree with you, and so I will.

I messed up my punctuation there, am sure you get it.

@ThePlantsitter I am not sure you are doing yourself any favours with ‘right to take up space’ either. I’d leave it alone if I was you. Suspect the world is going to leave you behind.

The only slightly naughty terminology we use with our children is the word ‘gammon’ which we use to sum up the entitled brexiteers we meet in our part of the world but I figure that is ok as it is a very different generation!

Flourandeggs so everyone who voted Brexit is entitled? Describing people as ‘gammon’ is not better than calling people common oiks.
You sound very closed minded.

No @Andante57. ‘Gammon’ goes right across the classes and is entirely different to calling people ‘common oiks’. My DF can be extremely ‘gammons’, particularly at Christmas surrounded by his left wing offspring and grandchildren. Indeed, it gives him great pleasure! Perhaps @flourandeggs lives in an area with a high concentration of people who voted for Brexit, ‘in our part of the world’ suggests she does and this is the word they use for a segment of that local population rather than simply everyone who voted for Brexit. There’s that kind of element about some (but not all by any means) of the people who voted for Brexit in my heavily Tory leaning region.