Secondary choices - middle class angst

[Wincher]

Name changer here, been on MN donkey’s years...

We’ve just done my eldest’s secondary application. We’ve gone for the local company - it’s 5 mins walk away, has rave reviews from parents I know with kids there, seems really welcoming and inclusive. Ofsted Good. Not great results, about 43% 5 good grades, basically in line with national average.

I just keep worrying that we’re not doing the best for my child and I need some sense knocked into me by MN. Both DH and I were privately educated. We are now very comfortably off. We were lucky enough to buy in London zone 3 before prices went crazy and we have a small but comfortable terraced house in a slightly grotty area a mile from the tube. We could afford something bigger in a better area but we have a brilliant group of friends here and our whole life is here. We could also - probably not as well as moving - afford private school for both our kids. But DH is against it in principle and it does seem like a crazy amount of money to spend - at £18k per year or so that’s the best part of £100k for each child just to get to GCSEs. Plus there’s the not minor point that my eldest is bright but not outstanding and really we should have been tutoring him for the last two years if he was going to stand a chance of passing entrance exams.

But I do really think private would suit him - he’s not bothered about being with his friends, he’d love to learn Latin, he’s little and got a posh accent and I worry he’ll be ripped to shreds in a big London state comp.

I think as the deadline for applying to private schools approaches (1 dec I think) I’m just worrying whether Sending him to the local school is really us doing our best by him. People say bright kids will do well wherever they go but is that really true? We still have a couple of months before the exams would be, we could intensively tutor him until then?!

Please tell me I’m being ridiculous and he will do well at the local school! I need to stop the yearning for rugby fields and wood-panelled halls.

Hi @Wincher
It sounds like you've answered your own question..... Of course private would be better, but how to get there...so the solution is a non selective independent school - where it doesn't matter if your not super bright, because you don't have to take a test to get in....which also means, it doesnt matter about the 11+ deadlines. The finances could still pose a problem from your husbands point of view, but many excellent Non Selective schools, still run scholarships and bursary programmes - up to 80% off in some cases!
So problem solved :)

Depends where you are in London but most of the private secondary application deadlines have passed

@Joy93 I'm genuinely curious. Why would private be better?! There are some great state schools.

I was privately educated, DH at a comp. DH is the one with the PhD. I was determined that my DDs would never go to a single sex private school and DH agreed with me. In any case, we could not have afforded it.

We are lucky that both went to a mixed state grammar school. They have a wide circle of friends. Some of their friends were on FSM, some had parents who worked in the City and earned 7 figure salaries. They were all there on merit alone. Both are now on prestigious university STEM courses, one at Oxbridge. Because we didn't have to find school fees, they had lessons on 2 instruments plus 3 dance lessons per week. They both played sport for the school and were able to go on music tours. We had some decent holidays too until DH's contract terminated and money became tight, at which point we thanked our lucky stars that we didn't have to pay school fees.

Before anyone moans about me knowing who was on FSM, I teach in the same school and have to know this information. It was never discussed with the DDs.

Reading the responses shows how much depends on the child, family and school. In our situation, for example, choosing independent meant easier travel not harder. Longer school days enable me to work longer hours. Sport and music are much more inclusive (every pupil competes in regular sports matches against other schools, and anyone learning an instrument has regular opportunities to perform - friends in local state schools often complain that only the A and B teams ever get to compete, and getting onto the teams is really hard). Yes, we could spend school fees on tutoring and outside clubs - but we live fairly rurally, so any club opportunities are at least 5 or 6 miles away, sometimes much more, and I would have to transport DS to everything (as well as organise it all in the first place). DH and I both work, so the longer private school day suits us brilliantly in terms of childcare (I know secondary age kids don't exactly need childcare, but I don't want DS at home alone for ages - and some state schools locally finish earlier than the primary schools). Yes, we would be able to spend more on holidays if he was in state, which is a downside - but for us the fact that he can do any extra curricular activity we could think of, to a high standard and with excellent facilities, without us having to persuade, transport or help organise him, is worth a lot. OP also has academics to possibly factor in (wasn't an issue for us as the alternative was a high performing state option).

But if we'd lived in a city, with lots of out of school opportunities, an easier journey to a state school, and lots of public transport to get to clubs etc, the choice might have looked very different. Particularly if our independent option hadn't been as good as it is.

We went state and DS lasted a year before we moved to private... he had been in bog standard primary -
but the constant low level bullying - due different interests- eg latin/rugby/history , the chair chucking range of behaviour - this was an outstanding comp which tried its best - they have excellent results and do really well by lots of kids - he /they really tried but unlike others I know did not make friends in the library.....and isnt top level bright to get into the 20 kids that get to do latin each year..

we could have picked the more middle class comp as it wasnt that much further a walk but the teachers had been so uninspiring at the open evening and known bullies from the area were there running riot...
we had considered private so had a back up option - he went to look and loved it - its been great for him - its not perfect and many wouldnt pay for the academic results but its a warm school and great rugby grounds..

Sending you a virtual hand hold. Husband and I both privately educated, big name boarding school. Both wasted our opportunities there, didn’t live up to our academic potential and got back on track mid 20’s. All of our children are at state, two at local comp and they are so happy. I got ripped to shreds at my boarding school (not cool enough, not rich enough, not druggy enough) and I just don’t see that at our comp. some people are just comp snobs and will shiver when you say you have happy achieving kids at a comp, but I couldn’t be happier with our offering and the way my teens are turning out, I love their company, their realistic take on life, and I feel they will go off to big uni’s very grounded with minimal hand holding and a really positive attitude to life. Please try not to stress, save the money for uni, post grads, house deposits. X

I think you've missed the application date for private?

What I would do is send him to the state, spend your money on extra curricular and tutors, and properly research schools that take at 13 plus just in case.

My Dcs are at state schools (although their schools have gcse results between 70% and 90%). They have friends at private schools.

Results wise, they are pretty much neck and neck with their friends, but it does involve me keeping a fairly close eye, getting a tutor for DS1 when one subject was clearly not working at his school (awful teacher, took a year for school to sort out and replace).

Extra curricular - my very high flying private school parent friends seem to all have a mantra of one sport, at least one instrument, and LAMDA. Plus the usual trips, experiences, theatre etc. All perfectly doable in the state system with a bit of support.

Would the OP have to give up everything to afford private education? If this is the case, I would not do it. In our case we could do everything for DDs. Education, holidays, dance lessons, music lessons, trips with school etc. It was a dent in family finances but not remotely terminal and they had a wonderful childhood and teenage years with lots of travel and experiences.

I am not a fan of private school for private school sake. You should look for value for money. Neither is a PhD at the end a mark of a great education. It is academic but it says nothing about wider interests, confidence, ability to succeeed in a company/career or any soft skills. DD1 is very high earning and not a PhD in sight. Simply doesn't need one.

The comp the OP describes is OK, but its academic results are not great. I do not necessarily expect better results at a private school. I do expect greater attention from staff. Smaller classes. Better behaviour. A wide choice of academic GCSES and A levels. The opportunity to take more than one GCSE in a MFL if talented. Plenty of Art. High quality drama. High quality music and sport. Fantastic role models and plenty of debate and stimulation from external speakers.

I do not expect to have to take DC all over the place for clubs and tuition outside school. I like it within school and the commerarderie that builds up. Always putting DC in a car to get to tutors, clubs and activities is time consuming. Never mind additional journeys and the environment. If anyone cannot afford it fairly easily I definitely would think twice but just looking at privagte education in terms of academia is very narrow. It should deliver far more than that.

@DonaldTrumpsChopper I think you've missed the application date for private?

They don’t all have one date?

DH and I are both privately educated and I worked in loads of London state secondaries over the years.

Personally, we’ll be going independent all through as it’s just a nicer experience for kids to have smaller classes, sports, music, extensive facilities etc. State schools only get a small fraction of the funding compared to indies so everything is done on a budget: huge classes, limited co-curriculars and facilities, even issues with funding photocopying or some basic resources etc.

If we couldn’t afford fees easily, we’d have moved to the best catchment (& try for grammars if children are v able) and spend disposable income on hobbies and travel + help through uni or house deposits etc.

In terms of academic attainment, the same cohort will get GCSE grades 1 or 1.5 higher at a top comp vs a rubbish one. I think I read some research a few years ago and it was 0.6 grade higher on average at indies vs state. So following on from those stats, a v successful comp would produce similar grades to an average indie for the same type of cohort.

Having said that, over 90% of people in the U.K. have been educated in the state system, some at better schools than others. I’m sure going with the average local comp will be fine.

@PresentingPercy - “ I do not expect to have to take DC all over the place for clubs and tuition outside school. I like it within school and the commerarderie that builds up. Always putting DC in a car to get to tutors, clubs and activities is time consuming. Never mind additional journeys and the environment.“

I get your point but for starters, the State school might offer a good range of clubs and activities. DDs offers Lamda as well as a drama club, 6 choirs, multiple instrument and singing tuition, a horse riding club, script writing, creative writing, an in-house recording studio and a host of spotting clubs. State schools are often written off as having a poor offering in this regard and quite honestly it’ll depend on the school.

As for ferrying DC to clubs or tuition, well that’ll depend on the area. Where we live, we have numerous tutors who will come to your home and drama/dance/scouts/netball/tennis clubs all within walking distance for example. Also, it does give DC the opportunity to build up/sustain local friendships - this is a big plus, especially if their school is some way away (something the OP mentioned as an issue).

Sporting not spotting!

@SJaneS48

Doesn’t sound like your daughter is at an average comp.

I think the point @SJaneS48 makes about different friendships is worth thinking about. If your whole social life is at school, this can be problematic if school friendships go wrong. It’s good for dc to have friends outside of school to turn to, and also just to widen their horizons a bit. Dd went to an independent school from years 7 to 11 and in her view a lot of the girls lived in a bit of a ‘bubble’. Certainly many of them had never met children from state schools.

Having been through the independent system with Dd, my feeling is it’s only really worth it, in terms of the extras, in years 7 to 9. For her, years 10 and 11 were just focused on GCSE and she might as well have been anywhere. Maybe that’s just her though.

@JoJoSM2 - she’s at an all girls State with a Performing Arts specialism. It may not be your average State I’ll grant you & this is a well heeled area but to be fair, our local State also had a decent Clubs offering. The assumption on Mumsnet is usually that Clubs at State schools will be a poor and limited offering. Especially when a school has a specialism, this really might not be the case!

I agree that having a good range of clubs 'in house' is a real bonus. Not just for practical reasons, but also for your child's motivation to have a go. Sure, if your child has a real passion then they're likely to want to pursue it outside school - but not necessarily if they don't. In the last year, DS has been involved in one choir, three instrumental ensembles, two drama clubs, one quiz club, one cookery club and a sports club. I'm not sure he'd have done any of those things out of school (except perhaps join an orchestra) - but the fact that they're all just 'there', either at lunchtime or after school, that his friends do them, that some are run by teachers he knows and likes, that his form tutor and teachers encourage him to get involved, that he can give a club a try without any big commitment initially, and that he can do them without getting in a car and still have plenty of time to do his homework, makes them far more appealing. They're also great for kids who (like him) find it easier to make friends through activities. That doesn't mean going to a private school of course - lots if state schools have lots of clubs - but I definitely think a school's extra curricular provision is something work looking at.

Our comp has brilliant range of extra curricular- robotics club, quills club, book to film club, 3 orchestras including 1 chamber, 4 different types of dance, drama, musical drama, every sport under sun (also has a polo and show jumping team organised by parents) science clubs, engineering- list goes on I won’t bore you. All free, run by enthusiastic and passionate teachers. Makes me want to go back to school and I have to stop myself from pressuring my kids to join each one as they do sometimes just want a quiet lunch eating with friends and having a catch up.

I have to say, the GCSE results alone would have put me off. Less than half the children getting 5 x 4/5-9. Of those, how many get a straight run of 7/8/9? Not that your child can necessarily achieve that but I would want to be happy it wasn’t just the outliers. Mine are at a state secondary, to be fair. It’s a highly academic state school where 85% get 5 good GCSE’s. Eldest had mostly 8’s with a couple of 7’s and a 9. Probably not even in the top 1/3 of the year. I would want to be relatively happy that if there are no SEN that even if they went off the boil they would still likely come out with the bare minimum.

I had a similar dilemma in that I work in an amazing independent school but a year ago sent my daughter to the local comp with similar results to yours. She is bright and I feel she will do well anywhere and she wanted to go to the comp with her friends. I was bog standard state educated and and I feel that although the school I work at (where I would get a massive fee reduction) is excellent, it’s a very strange and refined place that yes, gets excellent results but only as it selects in the first place! There’s no magic potion applied, you select the top 25% and then you get the top 25% of results especially when you have better facilities and smaller classes with very little disruption. Most state schools do better with what they have than any successful independent.

Some independents have amazing value added. The list of clubs at comps given by posters is way more than my relatives dc’s comps have. Just two different worlds! The bog standard ones don’t have much. Nowhere near what’s listed here. No choirs, orchestras etc. Poor drama and not much sport. Some dc simply don’t get much at a poor comp. I’m sure the very best are wonderful but the worst don’t offer much at all.

Thanks so much for all these really helpful replies. Lots of food for thought. We definitely haven’t missed the deadlines, one is 27 Nov and one is 1 Dec, with an open event this weekend. We’ve already seen virtual open events for both schools but of course it’s hard to get much of a sense that way - though perhaps it’s for the best as if we visited them in person in a usual year and got the hard sell we might have had more of a dilemma! I have visited both schools in the past for various drama/music performances and both have lovely facilities (proper theatres, swimming pools etc etc). But we think really there is better use of £100k per child than paying for years 7-11 in private. We can always think again if he is unhappy, or we might look at independents for sixth form (chosen comp only goes up to year 11).

The school we are going for has great music (not that my child is into that) and new buildings (the school is only a few years old). It will be fine, I’m sure. I checked the results again and they are basically bang on average. I’m sure he will do fine... Probably.

I don’t understand why some posters are being negative about the GCSE pass rates. Looking at the stats, the performance in 2019 was as average as it gets for progress and attainment for all sorts of pupil groups.

Tbf, 2019 was a much better year for the school, though, than the previous years so let’s hope it’s a trend rather than a one off decent year.

I think it’s very nice that the school in much smaller than most comps but it does seem a bit out of balance with 2/3 of pupils being boys and the intake is quite a lot more deprived than usual.

I also think the GCSE Grade 5 pass rates are what you'd expect for a comp with genuine mixed demographic. I think people saying they are poor are thinking about selective schools.

OP - if you've not already found this, you can look at the full information for the school by clicking the link at the bottom of the page. You'll be able to see more detailed break downs of information including results by high/medium/low achievers, and also the percentage of those getting grade 4 or above. What you should find is that the percentage of 5s is in line with the split of type of achiever. e.g. if the school is 80% high achievers this is appalling, but if it's 80% low achievers, this is really rather good.

I compared the school results against our local secondary moderns in a grammar county. They are on par with the better of those. The grammar cohort is missing. I think that’s fair. So I did query if the school had plenty of high achievers.

Often London schools do very well as Black and Asian DC are often high achievers. More so than white boys. A report out this week says this is why northern schools are getting poorer results than the SE. Not sure I’m quite with that. However I didn’t compare results with any remotely selective schools. The selective schools here get mostly 99/100 percent as you would expect.

Obviously you are not wedded to private schools op and enjoy your money!