Secondary choices - middle class angst

[Wincher]

Name changer here, been on MN donkey’s years...

We’ve just done my eldest’s secondary application. We’ve gone for the local company - it’s 5 mins walk away, has rave reviews from parents I know with kids there, seems really welcoming and inclusive. Ofsted Good. Not great results, about 43% 5 good grades, basically in line with national average.

I just keep worrying that we’re not doing the best for my child and I need some sense knocked into me by MN. Both DH and I were privately educated. We are now very comfortably off. We were lucky enough to buy in London zone 3 before prices went crazy and we have a small but comfortable terraced house in a slightly grotty area a mile from the tube. We could afford something bigger in a better area but we have a brilliant group of friends here and our whole life is here. We could also - probably not as well as moving - afford private school for both our kids. But DH is against it in principle and it does seem like a crazy amount of money to spend - at £18k per year or so that’s the best part of £100k for each child just to get to GCSEs. Plus there’s the not minor point that my eldest is bright but not outstanding and really we should have been tutoring him for the last two years if he was going to stand a chance of passing entrance exams.

But I do really think private would suit him - he’s not bothered about being with his friends, he’d love to learn Latin, he’s little and got a posh accent and I worry he’ll be ripped to shreds in a big London state comp.

I think as the deadline for applying to private schools approaches (1 dec I think) I’m just worrying whether Sending him to the local school is really us doing our best by him. People say bright kids will do well wherever they go but is that really true? We still have a couple of months before the exams would be, we could intensively tutor him until then?!

Please tell me I’m being ridiculous and he will do well at the local school! I need to stop the yearning for rugby fields and wood-panelled halls.

littlemisslozza. Why would the grammar school class have it easier? They may be more academic in ability to begin as an average, but the non selective private school will be able to give more focus to the individual children surely, and therefore the bright children in that class have more of an advantage than the grammar children? I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

@Holidaysaresoon. I think this was the final straw! The pressure of fee paying parents expecting big things?

schoolsweek.co.uk/a-level-results-2020-private-schools-see-biggest-boost-in-top-grades/

No flourandeggs that doesn't seem right.

Much better to do it on actual. When is it starting from?

I guess I'm coming at it from a comprehensive teacher perspective - in my experience the top couple of sets have up to 30 but then they gradually get smaller. Top sets pretty straightforward and generally well motivated. Might only have 13-14 in lowest set so they get much more attention than top sets. It's rubbish that all classes in state are 30, not in secondary school once they are set although I know it's true for primary classes, (in fact often they're bigger).

To have got into a grammar school in the first place those children already find school a lot easier than 'average' or lower ability children, whether they go to a state or independent school. I think people forget that private school doesn't necessarily equal clever, in fact some go to one because they have learning difficulties. They are just children doing their best, whatever school they're in. Thinking of friends' children here in independent schools, who are dyslexic, dyspraxic, state didn't work for them so they moved. They don't have it easy though. Does that explain where I'm coming from? Not all private schools = Eton?!

@PresentingPercy the contextual offers were based on the fact that the A Level results in the school were fairly low.

Thank you littlemisslozza. I guess when the university's look at that school's overall performance , then the grammars will often outperform the private schools.

Universities have different approaches to contextual offers. Bristol have a list of the ‘low performing’ comps but it’s fairly extensive, I would guess at least the bottom 40-50% as a popular comp in a nice market town near us is on it.

Lots of universities use data about the student’s postcode - POLAR and Acorn I think? They usually use this in combination with what school you go to but not always. I think Durham say postcode plus A Levels done at a state school. This means my Dd might get a contextual offer from them, despite having been at an independent from 11-16 and now at a grammar. She’s not bothered about going there though!

This article came out in the summer about one of the private’s in our area re contextual grades. I’m unaware if this is common practice.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/24/top-public-school-asks-teachers-to-exaggerate-exam-predictions

@littlemisslozza
” To have got into a grammar school in the first place those children already find school a lot easier than 'average' or lower ability children”

Apologies but I do really disagree with you on this! I’ve personally no big issue with out of county parents putting their DC into out of area grammars, I’ve a couple of East Sussex friends with DC at Kent and they are just doing what they feel is giving their DC the best option available. The big problem is the actual admissions process itself.

I’ve said this before on Mumsnet and usually there are a couple of parents who will say their DC sailed through with little or no preparation. I’m not going dispute this but this is absolutely not what I see at all in the grammar county I live in. There is a complete fallacy that it’s the brightest and best who get into grammars, the children @littlemisozza feels are finding school the easiest. Without a single exception, the DC I know at grammars were either tutored professionally (often from Year 4) or had graduate level parents coaching them with books and papers (4 of whom of who I know are teachers themselves). When DH who was then Chair of Governors at our local Primary went through the 11+ of that year with the Headteacher, there was also a couple of questions in it that weren’t even covered in the national curriculum. The DC I know who have taken the 11+ without any prep have without a single exception failed it. From DD’s primary class, the DC now at grammars weren’t in a number of cases the brightest of the bunch by any means, not low ability but pretty middling!

Someone else described the situation in grammar counties as the tax payer funding a system in which middle class children were educated separately to that of the working class and given an added advantage. I completely agree with this. While not all DC at grammars may be MC as some WC parents do invest in tutoring, it’s really a paid for entrance either in terms of money or parental time.

I don’t blame any parent in the least who does get tutoring or coaches themselves - the situation is as it is and they are doing what they can for their DC in an unfair system. If DH hadn’t been more firm on living your principles than me, I’m sure we’d have gone down this route! The whole system does need a complete and utter overhaul though!

I do agree with much of what you say @SJaneS49 but it’s not quite that clear cut. In Birmingham, 25% of places are earmarked for pupil premium children and the new catchment areas prioritise local Birmingham children over wealthier families from Worcestershire or Solihull.

My ds may be at grammar school but he doesn’t find school easy! He has ADHD and isn’t really suited to the institution of school at all. But I think this is slightly going off track from the OP’s original question!

Yes I guess it will depend on area, in ours it’s about 8 out of 180 places ring fenced for PP pupils who have passed the 11+. And yes, you are right, ranting about the inequalities of the grammar system is going off topic so I’ll leave that here!

This is the situation at our neighbouring grammar county too @Sjane. I have no idea about places set aside for pupil premium students. If they do that's great but everyone I know who has gone down this route seems to have done either or both of a) paid for a tutor and b) taken the child to classes at the school one evening per week during year 5.

But yes, I agree it is OT!

With two quite large air bases in our GS county, PP children are not necessarily deprived. Indeed some are officers’ DC. I’m not aware any places in the grammars are ring fenced for PP places. We also find some very intelligent people have decided they don’t really want better paid jobs and are happy for DC to get PP. These parents are often well placed to tutor.

It’s good for dc to have friends outside of school to turn to, and also just to widen their horizons a bit

As someone who does ferry children around to various activities, I completely disagree about the above. My kids are dropped at their activities and picked up an hour later. The other kids at the activities are acquaintances, they are not seen from one week to the next. They are not phones, let alone invited to parties. Friendships are confined to school friends and this is the case for every single activity for my children!

Without a single exception, the DC I know at grammars were either tutored professionally (often from Year 4) or had graduate level parents coaching them with books and papers (4 of whom of who I know are teachers themselves).

I thought this was accepted as the norm. Do people really believe the ‘brightest’ get in m???

@Thismustbelove what at shame! Not the case here, out of school activities and especially sport really broadens my childrens’ lives and I have made some lovely friends too.

@Thismustbelove

It’s good for dc to have friends outside of school to turn to, and also just to widen their horizons a bit

As someone who does ferry children around to various activities, I completely disagree about the above. My kids are dropped at their activities and picked up an hour later. The other kids at the activities are acquaintances, they are not seen from one week to the next. They are not phones, let alone invited to parties. Friendships are confined to school friends and this is the case for every single activity for my children!

But it’s not for my children! Their closest friends are from youth group and church. They also have really good friends from the summer camps they (usually) attend every year. They have good friends from school too, but these aren’t their best friends.

It probably depends what sort of outside school activities they do. Things like youth group and scouts are more likely to encourage friendship than karate.

Didn’t finish my earlier post - I’m sure you can make friends at karate but there’s less social interaction and probably not the trips/camps etc.

@crazycrofter of course I forgot about scouts and guides and brownies, and at the moment that is a really lovely break to week as they are doing it on zoom, they all have made lovely friends this way.

@Thismustbelove, yes I think a lot of people do, hence comments such as ” To have got into a grammar school in the first place those children already find school a lot easier than 'average' or lower ability children”.

Scouts has played quite a big part in DD2 keeping her local Primary friends after they all went off in different directions after Primary. She’s also made friends from dance (they spend a lot of time together at exam time and in show years). In our case out of school activities have been good on the friendship front but admittedly these are all very local to us rather than being a case of us having to ferry her out of area. That might have been different.

@Thismustbelove

It’s good for dc to have friends outside of school to turn to, and also just to widen their horizons a bit

As someone who does ferry children around to various activities, I completely disagree about the above. My kids are dropped at their activities and picked up an hour later. The other kids at the activities are acquaintances, they are not seen from one week to the next. They are not phones, let alone invited to parties. Friendships are confined to school friends and this is the case for every single activity for my children!

Opposite experience here. They may not get invited to parties (which are a few closest friends only in teen years) but the DC certainly keep in touch with "club friends" via social media and occasionally meet up with them (bit different this year, obviously). They quite like having friends who aren't focussed on school gossip etc.