Secondary choices - middle class angst

[Wincher]

Name changer here, been on MN donkey’s years...

We’ve just done my eldest’s secondary application. We’ve gone for the local company - it’s 5 mins walk away, has rave reviews from parents I know with kids there, seems really welcoming and inclusive. Ofsted Good. Not great results, about 43% 5 good grades, basically in line with national average.

I just keep worrying that we’re not doing the best for my child and I need some sense knocked into me by MN. Both DH and I were privately educated. We are now very comfortably off. We were lucky enough to buy in London zone 3 before prices went crazy and we have a small but comfortable terraced house in a slightly grotty area a mile from the tube. We could afford something bigger in a better area but we have a brilliant group of friends here and our whole life is here. We could also - probably not as well as moving - afford private school for both our kids. But DH is against it in principle and it does seem like a crazy amount of money to spend - at £18k per year or so that’s the best part of £100k for each child just to get to GCSEs. Plus there’s the not minor point that my eldest is bright but not outstanding and really we should have been tutoring him for the last two years if he was going to stand a chance of passing entrance exams.

But I do really think private would suit him - he’s not bothered about being with his friends, he’d love to learn Latin, he’s little and got a posh accent and I worry he’ll be ripped to shreds in a big London state comp.

I think as the deadline for applying to private schools approaches (1 dec I think) I’m just worrying whether Sending him to the local school is really us doing our best by him. People say bright kids will do well wherever they go but is that really true? We still have a couple of months before the exams would be, we could intensively tutor him until then?!

Please tell me I’m being ridiculous and he will do well at the local school! I need to stop the yearning for rugby fields and wood-panelled halls.

@coolingbreezes - fingers crossed it isn’t. But my younger brother has been going through an episode of this recently...it is hard when that is all you knew (he was private school from 4-18) and if you are used to dining halls and music rooms etc, you can feel that is what you should also give to your child and seeing a state primary where the hall is used for pe and lessons and eating can seem a shock. When I have had these moments I look at what our particular state schools are giving my kids that I didn’t have (community, friends next door can hop through the hole in the hedge, famous five like existence during knockdown 1 as so many of them in the village and they spent hours in the river, on long walks, a broader range of friends, ) but I have friends who have tied themselves in knots (and got themselves into dreadful debt) as they have felt ‘it was done for me so I must do it for them’. My parents marriage broke down when my dad took a job abroad to pay school fees...so again I feel that is something that my children are lucky about, they are not carrying the guilt of debt due to their education. All personal experiences of course. My brother opted state in the end as he thinks my kids are happier than our other siblings kids who are in private and have had some difficult experiences, plus they have a good state school offering. It is very difficult when you have the money not do it, but as my husband says we might have the money but that doesn’t mean we can afford it (he is a wise owl and very good at future planning, pensions etc) we want the financial security of knowing the kids have a nest egg and that we aren’t putting all our financial eggs in one basket in the first stage of parenting, that anyhow doesn’t offer any guarantee of return for our children. Many privately educated people don’t go on to earn great salaries, some do, they are the ones you hear about. From my cohort about a third have high earning jobs.

That all makes perfect sense. In our case DS was at state primary, still has lots of friends in state, doesn't have wider family in private, I work in a very down to earth job, and we don't generally move in the private school parent social circle, so I don't think he will necessarily feel that inherited pressure if and when he has kids - but I accept I could be wrong.

@coolingbreezes I think having a mix of both sectors is the key. We were lucky to have a brilliant secondary in our local comp, much better offering than the village primary (although it did give them a lovely childhood it was pretty basic) . Also I did have rather a lot of children - I come from a big family and I suppose that is the particular inherited burden I couldn't ignore, I just wanted to replicate that side of my upbringing. My husband would happily, very sensibly, have had one or two children. The type of families at our comp who you would think might be doing private schools from their accents seem to either have lots of kids or lots of horses or just really love the local school lifestyle and lack of pressure.

I just think that private schooling is sometimes (especially on MN!) singled out for criticism in a way that lets other forms of privilege off the hook.

I agree, and actually I (personally, tho I get why people go for them) have more against grammar schools than private schools because they create sink comps. I am lucky to live in an area with good state schools and mine was too so I guess it's easy for me to say go to one. Who's to say what I would do if I didn't (I did briefly consider a faith secondary school based on my very lapsed catholicism before realising I couldn't do it). Kids in my family go to faith schools (for genuinely religious reasons) and I do get what you mean about the social bubble. I think the more 'fair weather' faith school go-ers are in effect actively choosing a selective school, but then I half considered it so...

@Emmapeeler2 I completely agree. We are not a grammar county. My friend is doing 11plus with her eldest at the moment and will be sending him an hour on a bus into a neighbouring grammar county if he gets in. So not only turning her nose up at our outstanding (and more importantly to me, lovely, local comp) 10 minutes away, but also taking a place from a child in the grammar county who only has sink schools as a second choice (and who maybe can't afford the £,0000's she has spent on tutoring and books over two years). It feels like she is being a comp snob, she knows that our comp gets the brightest, well supported kids great results if it is results that matter hugely to her. I find it morally repugnant that tax payers are paying for this out of county shenanigans! However, for the sake of the friendship I need to bite my lip. I am not questioning those who take that option in grammar counties if the alternative have been turned into sink schools as a consequence, I can see that would make it a harder choice (but not necessarily the right one.)

Yes, and I think we all have our 'lines'. I was willing to consider a grammar or an independent, I guess because, while recognising their somewhat problematic role in society, I felt that my son at least qualified for a place 'honestly' (even though some would think unfairly). I wasn't prepared to consider a faith school because, although it would have been easy to do so, and the nearest faith school is extremely good, it would have meant essentially lying to get in (plus I didn't want a faith school ethos).

@coolingbreezes agreed! No God options round here anyway but I am a bit of a pagan and we wouldn't have fitted in at all!

The point about the effect paying private school fees has on the family is a very pertinent one. My parents prioritised paying for private education over just about everything else, which meant that there was no surplus money. I remember a lot of arguments about my dad buying something inessential (cheap, second hand) and whether they could really afford it. And as an adult my parents were constantly reminding me about how much they'd spent on my private education (until the point where I snapped and said if they worked out how much it was perhaps I could pay them back in installments).
If you can comfortably afford private education and it will make very little difference to you, I think that's one thing. If it will impacts other areas of your life, you need to be sure that is a sacrifice you are genuinely prepared to make, and will not, for example, regret when your DC has a less than stellar school experience.

@RedskyAtnight it really had an effect on me. I thought it was my fault that Dad was abroad even though I didn't choose to go to private school. I worked so hard to get a scholarship thinking I could save him some money and then he could come home (he didn't - he couldn't). Then when I didn't get brilliant A levels, I spent years feeling that I was a let down, and it gnaws away at your self belief. I look back now with absolute certainty that if I had been given a choice at the time - a father to spend quality time with or private school, I would have chosen the father option, you never get those years back (I get it that not everyone has to make that choice and some people earn so much or inherit so much they don't need to factor in the emotional impact of fee paying). Not having the shadow of school bills constantly hanging over us means that both my husband and I can enjoy quality time with our children, put time in to our community, charity, friendships (not spend money on big houses, glam holidays and eating out as lots of MNetters seem to think those people who make the the decision not to pay fees do. We rarely eat out, have shoddy cars and a tumbledown cozy house in dire need of some money spent on it) We are ( mostly) happy, unstressed and able to live in a mindful way but my Dad ended up with a drink problem and I blame the stress. These sort of personal experiences do drive decisions.

I said pages ago that paying for private education should only be seriously considered if you can genuinely afford it. We didn’t go without anything and scraping the fees together would not have been the life I wanted for DC or us.

I live in a grammar county and the non grammar schools are really secondary moderns in all but name. They are described as all ability but of course they are not. However many have over 30 per cent high achieving DC. They are very far removed from the lazy term “sink comps”. In fact quite a few of the schools are sought after and parents are proud for DC to go to them. DC from them achieve well and go to a wide range of universities and their gcse results are better than many true comps.

We are lucky enough to live in an area where we have very good private, comprehensives and a handful of grammar schools, although the majority of the comprehensives are either church or it costs £££ to live in the catchment.

I have experience of both state and private and I would say (compared to a good state or grammar) the difference with private is the 'customer service', facilities and smaller class sizes (important for some children, but not necessary for all). The private school experience is simply nicer, but (depending on the state option, the child, and this is important, family finances) I'm personally not sure worth £150k+ over 7 years. Supplement anything missing at the state by doing it outside school. Of course, for some families private school a lifestyle choice and wouldn't consider anything else no matter how good the state options.

The comprehensives do vary and, again, depending on the child, can be a good fit. A colleague's daughter a few years ago achieved 4 A* and then a 1st at Cambridge (she was bookish, but also very musical, and good enough to represent the school and go on some fantastic trips) whilst a friend's bright but lazy son at another comprehensive wasn't stretched and was very bored academically, although enjoyed the sport.

We chose state over private for DC who is academic, self motivated and competitive , but would have probably stretched ourselves if they hadn't got into either of our top two state choices, but we are really pleased we don't have to.

My sister and I have discussed this ‘inherited burden’ concept ourselves and I think it does feature a bit for us but not enough to significantly change where we sent our DC. I just don’t have any sentimentality about ‘wood panelled halls’ - possibly as my boarding school despite I’m sure it’s big fees was a tatty Gothic horror of a place! But on the other hand I do feel some definite obligation to give my children a bigger picture on the world through travel. My parents were posted all over the place, DM, DSiS & I didn’t always live all the time with DF, particularly in our very early years but by the time I was DD2’s age we’d been to a great deal of places. This we do spend our money on (but not in the same kind of hotels I’ll have stayed in as a child as I’m a complete tightwad!).

@flourandeggs. yes DD1 is great & takes no prisoners (although if I’m honest the MC parent in me would rather she got a proper job!). However (and you may experience this) the next generation do have a way of making you feel like an antiquated dinosaur! I think I’m very liberal but perhaps a bit like I feel with my DF, she does make me feel like I hold some pretty dubious and & highly conservative views. Whether that’s on Keir Starmer (who I do quite like & she sees as not much left of BoJo) monogamy (unnatural & repressive in her view), marriage (ditto) or sexuality. I do make big gaffs as well - she’s bi (or pan as she defines it) sexual and currently seeing a man but prior to this was seeing someone who was gender fluid (biologically male but presented largely as female). Without wishing to be rude, they weren’t visually a very attractive or convincing woman being built like a 6ft3 rugby player so I did on more than one occasion slip up and get my pronouns wrong! Not my finest hour!

@coolingbreezes, fair point about the private sector perhaps being unfairly targeted at the expense of other ways we give privilege. Hypocrisy & moral grand standing abounds, sure I’m guilty of that!

I agree about that flour - my county is also full of really great schools and yet some people still choose to send out of county to a grammar. It's hard to understand. It's a v good point about taking a place from an in-county child.

it would have meant essentially lying to get in

This is what bothered me too, I would have felt too guilty. Turns out I am more catholic than I thought I was

My DD1 has just finished at the nearest bog standard local comp. Intake at the school is roughly national average in ability and the results at GCSE are slightly above national average.

Anyway, DD was very happy there. Went to all the clubs going and joined a sports team. She got 10 GCSEs all at 8 or 9 and then 4xA* at A-Level. She now at one of the top unis in the country.

Due to the fact that she is very bright and motivated, the staff gave her lots of extra encouragement.

Also, because she was ‘disadvantaged’ by being at a state comp with quite low A Level results, that meant she got lower offers from most unis.

If results are above average, was that actually low enough to get contextual offers? That means 50% of comps with DC achieving below yours (As you are about average) would also get low offers? That seems like a lot of DC and a lot of schools. Your school obviously had good teachers. That’s the mark of a good school. Good teachers.

Interesting. Are all university offers the same unless you attend an under performing comprehensive? No distinction between state and private at all?

There is so much difference within both sectors. Round here, for state, it's 11-16 followed by separate sixth form college. Many underperform due to the distractions of being in town and I know that as a teacher who was often sad to see that promising pupils hadn't achieved what we thought they potentially could have. Personally I think it's got to be better to have the option of 11-18 but that's only possible in the one grammar school in the entire county and the independent schools.

Additionally, some state schools offer many more extra curricular activities than others. Here, rurally, where over 75% of pupils are bused in, it means that there are hardly any clubs before or after school. In our local town, the most sought after comprehensive is hugely selective by being able to afford a house within a mile of it. Most expensive part of town and a different way of paying for schooling.

I've a friend who sends her son to a local private school but her postcode apparently gives him a deprived area status for university applications, because the local secondary has such poor results. No idea how it works, but doesn't seem right!

@littlemisslozza 6th form colleges outperform school 6th both on absolute results and PP progress. It's a definite advantage to have access to 6th form colleges, one local to us sends more kids to oxbridge than any private 6th form in the country.

@Holidaysaresoon all uni’s do it differently. This is Oxford’s method.... www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/decisions/contextual-data#

In general there seems to be official contextual data but also an unofficial understanding about how bright you have to be to get good grades from a comp compared to independent. A friend of mine put her son down for 6th form indie thinking he wouldn’t get in to the sixth form at our comp which required fairly high GCSEs. He surpassed his predictions and got in so then she had a dilemma. She spoke to contacts at Oxford and Bristol and their feedback was keep him in state, Bristol had a fair few students from the particular state school and rated the students as they went on to do well on their courses, Oxford contact said they would look at state school results slightly differently to indie. I think they have an official policy and an unofficial policy. Clearly they are going to Iook at a student with 3 A’s from any comp (not just low performing) slightly differently to 3 A’s from an indie or grammar, they aren’t daft! It is all going to change soon again as no more offers based on predictions (which always favoured indies).

That's great but sadly our local ones don't!

Illustrates my point about it varying so much around the country! You can only decide which school is best for your child based on where you live. We don't all get offered the same choices.

Thanks flourandeggs that makes sense. Why do predicted grades advantage private schools? Surely all teachers can over-egg grades? Do uni's put grammars and private in the same bucket? Grammars have much larger class sizes so I thought would still be disadvantaged compared to private?

But not all private schools are selective so that wouldn't be fair either. Compare, say, a class of 30 high achieving grammar pupils and a mixed ability class of 20 in a non-selective independent school and I would say that the grammar pupils have it easier.