Secondary choices - middle class angst

[Wincher]

Name changer here, been on MN donkey’s years...

We’ve just done my eldest’s secondary application. We’ve gone for the local company - it’s 5 mins walk away, has rave reviews from parents I know with kids there, seems really welcoming and inclusive. Ofsted Good. Not great results, about 43% 5 good grades, basically in line with national average.

I just keep worrying that we’re not doing the best for my child and I need some sense knocked into me by MN. Both DH and I were privately educated. We are now very comfortably off. We were lucky enough to buy in London zone 3 before prices went crazy and we have a small but comfortable terraced house in a slightly grotty area a mile from the tube. We could afford something bigger in a better area but we have a brilliant group of friends here and our whole life is here. We could also - probably not as well as moving - afford private school for both our kids. But DH is against it in principle and it does seem like a crazy amount of money to spend - at £18k per year or so that’s the best part of £100k for each child just to get to GCSEs. Plus there’s the not minor point that my eldest is bright but not outstanding and really we should have been tutoring him for the last two years if he was going to stand a chance of passing entrance exams.

But I do really think private would suit him - he’s not bothered about being with his friends, he’d love to learn Latin, he’s little and got a posh accent and I worry he’ll be ripped to shreds in a big London state comp.

I think as the deadline for applying to private schools approaches (1 dec I think) I’m just worrying whether Sending him to the local school is really us doing our best by him. People say bright kids will do well wherever they go but is that really true? We still have a couple of months before the exams would be, we could intensively tutor him until then?!

Please tell me I’m being ridiculous and he will do well at the local school! I need to stop the yearning for rugby fields and wood-panelled halls.

Percy The results are similar to my DC's comp, which is genuinely mixed 30/50/20 high/medium/low achievers, average for things like FSM indicators etc. Produces a good number of DC with strings of high grades each year. That's why I think OP needs to drill into the numbers a bit more, rather than looking at headline figures.

That's why I think OP needs to drill into the numbers a bit more, rather than looking at headline figures.

The figures for 2019 do look absolutely fine and the school does ok by all pupil groups.

I think the problem with asking on Mumsnet for people’s opinions on schooling is that judging by the threads, it attracts a demographic of people with either DC in Private or going for highly Selective’s. The London threads as someone not in London are quite something else - obviously quite a lot of money is being spent on putting 10/11 year olds through gruelling processes with the belief that there aren’t alternatives and this is all somehow necessary.

Which if isn’t to be frank. Or at least in my experience. A friends DS who was Dulwich College did well in his exams but no better than two other friends DC (both of whom got mainly 9s with a few 8s) who’s went to State schools in North London who went to schools I’m sure a lot of the Mums on here would immediately discount. Admittedly, my N London friends are graduate professionals who topped up with coaching on certain subjects but that didn’t equal anything like the £££ of Dulwich College. The DC in question have also had the advantage of mixing with children who come from all walks of life.

I think if the school is achieving at least the national average, rated good, has no issues with security (as a small number of schools in certain London boroughs will) then you should be reasonably confident (and that’s as much as any of us can be really even if you are paying through the nose there aren’t any guarantees!) that he will do well. And in the worse case scenario, you can actually move him!

But Dulwich College isn’t just about grades. There’s far more to choosing a school then grades. We gave up a place at a grammar school. Obviously great grades but other elements were lacking. With appeals, they often ended up with 33/34 in a class. It’s a great school but it was very tight on its site and simply wasn’t the same as the independent school we chose. However DD boarded so we did have considerable choice and not in London. I do recognise we are in a middle class area and the secondary moderns are about what you say the attainment split is in the comp. However there are few very high gcse results and A levels in the secondary moderns, as you would expect. A comp should have these and yes, I would look at the stats in greater depth.

But I do understand why people prefer to keep their money for other things. None of our friends have gone private at all. We didn’t for the results. That really is to misunderstand what the best private schools are offering. It should be, and in most cases is, a broader education.

Not all children are up for extra curricular activities. Dd is a joiner-inner and she did go to lots of clubs in years 7-9. Ultimately none of them resulted in long-term passions or skills, but they were nice socialising activities at the time. I'm not sure whether they're worth paying for on that basis though!

Ds is not a joiner-inner at all, he tried table tennis club in year 7 but decided it wasn't for him. He likes lone pursuits - at the moment, all his spare time at home (outside of xbox time of course) is spent practising piano or in his garage gym, working out. I just can't imagine him joining any of the many clubs on offer at the boys school equivalent to his sister's old school, so I'm quite glad he didn't get a place!

Dd did benefit from other sorts of enrichment in years 7-9 before GCSEs took over - days off curriculum, more trips etc than her brother and again, they made life more interesting at the time. I don't know if she's more broadly educated than her grammar school brother though? How would you judge that?

Ultimately, we chose schools where we thought they'd be most happy - only you and your family can decide that.

@PresentingPercy, “ isn’t just about grades. There’s far more to choosing a school then grades. ”. Far more culturally enriching and helpful for networking opportunities? My friends boy went on to a good (but not Oxbridge) University, got a very average 2:2 in History, wants to go into Law but so far has had no joy. Not exactly ‘wow’. My niece in contrast went on to Bath from a State, got a First and landed a job with the Foreign Office as an Analyst on a starting salary of £32K. Her boyfriend (who was at the same State) is doing a Masters at Cambridge. All without this “so much more”.

Having been privately educated myself, my accent might have helped on occasion but being perceived as ‘posh’ has worked against me as well. I’ve stayed in some nice houses and been to some lovely parties but quite honestly this ‘so much more’ is a bit questionable really.

Well I’m afraid a 2:2 and Law is impossible! Someone needs an honest talk with him. As 2:2 is fairly unusual these days he’s hasn’t a hope even if hell froze over. I have friends with a DS with 2:2 in maths from Cambridge. Took him a year to get a job. A 1st from Bath is always competitive but I think personality and endeavour has come into this. The successful ones grasped opportunities and the history boy didn’t.

But you are also not comparing what’s “more”. You are comparing academics and probably personality! My whole point is that often parents with money are not looking for pure academics. They do want the extras. They want a broad experience and, when looking at many parents at private schools, “people like them”. It’s a sort of club and these parents would never consider state. They are hard wired private! They don’t exist on MN!

Of course DC cannot be dragged into doing extra things and if they are not interested, so why pay if money is an issue? Only pay if you think DC benefit.

@PresentingPercy I agree with what @SJaneS48 said that there seems to be a tranch of mumsnetters who obsess about education whilst actually then detracting from giving their children a happy childhood. I also disagree with what you said about post grad / phd from earlier up your post - for many people these are their best educational experiences. My post grad was a much, much better experience for me than my elite boarding school experience and it is one of the reasons we are not using savings on private school but saving it for tertiary education, as I would hate to have to say no to that if it is something my children want to do. There are brilliant and crap examples of schools in both sectors, and I do agree with you that paying for private for the sake of private is completely daft. If we had a fabulous one on our doorstep we might be tempted but they are very mediocre for what you pay whereas the comp is cracking and I suspect setting my children up rather well for real life which was not something that I experienced!

@PresentingPercy, completely agree that my friends DS needs to be more realistic - he’s an extremely charming and good looking boy who could use his people skills very successfully elsewhere - but as I’m sure you appreciate, not my place to have a word!

Sorry if the above was a bit of a rant but quite honestly like @flourandeggs, my own experience (Boarding and then Day) of Private education does rather make me question the value add of this supposed ‘broader experience’. Personally that probably boils down to remembering a few lines in Latin, being bad at lacrosse, knowing how to eat certain foods & use cutlery & remembering all the words to hymns I’ll never sing (as I’m an atheist)!I also feel like @flour that my DD have had rather a broader life experience than I had thanks to going to State schools & mingling with children from different backgrounds than ours.

DD loved her choral singing and still does! Loved debating and now advocates for a living! Takes all sorts. Not sure anyone told her about cutlery! She didn’t do Latin. I get you cannot advise the history grad but he’s chasing a rainbow!

@PresentingPercy, cutlery wasn’t a formal class, setting tables in the refectory was on a rota, putting cutlery out for 3 courses (all disgusting) & all overseen by a scary Nun who should have been sectioned. We’d draw lots every day for which table we were on, the short straw being the Heads table who would remark on the way we ate down to the ‘correct’ way to cut and eat an apple. Such is my enriched, broad experience! But all schools offer children different things, there is no right or wrong when it comes to what we all choose. And your DD sounds rather great!

Wincher I could have written a similar post. I've filled in the CAF for the state schools and DD1 has an outside chance of getting into the only selective school, but that would be a 45 minute journey on public transport compared to the 10 minute walk to the local state. Most of her friends are going to the local comps ( both around 43-45 mark) but a few are applying for the local private school which is also a short walk. This has made me wonder whether we should try too. But think we have decided against it mainly as I don't want us to have the burden of nearly £20k after tax for the next 7-9 years (in fact would be more like £36k with dd2). I agree with spending money on outside things
also people who are taking any longer days at private, what about the shorter holidays? They're a nightmare for working parents. We're also lucky as the local girls school is better academically than the mixed comps and an option, although would prefer mixed in an ideal world given how much I disliked my all girls boarding school!

I don't think private registrations have closed though, certainly not ones that we were considering.

If it’s a burden financially then you shouldn’t. Is that simple. My DDs had very different experiences at modern boarding schools. I’m happy that we could choose well and ensure they got the best education for them. I don’t think, educationally, they over achieved at all but DD1 certainly has a more prestigious job with good earnings then her old primary school friends. One or two of the boys are doing well but the girls seem to work for charities, in PR, for various NGOs and quite a few didn’t do post grad qualifications at all. So although they went to a grammar they are doing jobs plenty of non grads could do. It’s down to personality and determination as much as education.

For us there are lots of things that all help to contribute to a very happy day to day school life. A beautiful environment (lovely buildings and grounds). Fantastic food. Almost zero disruptive behaviour. Smallish classes and high staff-pupil ratios which mean that pupils get lots of individual attention. Great facilities and resources (swimming pool, concert hall, library etc). Comfortable common rooms to hang out with friends. Loads of clubs to try out. Etc. None of this is about grades or university destinations or jobs, it's just about having the nicest possible time for 7 years. School and university is a pretty unique time in your life where you have an opportunity to broaden your mind, spend time with friends without the pressures of 9-5, try new things, and I want that to be as enjoyable and inspiring for DS as possible. It's not just about comparing one school against another, but potentially providing opportunities that he'll never have again in his life (how many adults get to spend hours each week doing the sport they love, or performing in a concert hall on a beautiful grand, or being taught really interesting stuff by really inspiring people, or whatever their passion might be? I certainly don't!). For us, we feel that the best option for providing the best experience we can for DS is via school fees rather than spending the money on holidays and extra curricular clubs and so on. Of course we're very lucky to have that choice. Most people don't, and lots of people who do would make a different choice (spending the money on holidays or house deposits or whatever). I'm not saying ours is the right decision - but so far we're happy with the one we've made.

Grammar or private for sure. If you can afford it

@coolingbreezes it sounds very similar to my experience of school (minus the drugs and anorexia and low level bullying from boys😂) it was very sumptuous and spoiling but I had an enormous shock when I realised that life wasn’t all about playing grand pianos that your talent didn’t really deserve! Private schools can be deliciously alluring but so many of my friends didn’t achieve their potential because they thought that things would continue to be handed to them on a plate once they were in the real world. University was a shock to me because I was used to tiny classes and I didn’t put my hand up for two years in a lecture. The state school kids were so much brighter than me (and I had a minor academic scholarship) I am much more inspired by the people I meet who busted a gut to get where they are, their stories are so much more valuable, their talents considerable, because they had to aim so high to get where they were. My kids go state and have a lovely time and we save our money for uni, post grads, house deposits, our pensions and we put huge amounts of time into our community, charity, and are blessed to be able to take our children skiing and on interesting travel experiences and pay for sports clubs that coach to a higher level than schools can, and pay for music tuition. I suspect our children will turn out fairly similar as like you we are achingly middle class - they will go to RG unis and have decent careers. I work in a sphere that means that I am helping children who aren’t bought up in achingly middle class homes to have some time and attention, and I am not brilliantly paid but blimey it is rewarding. I think our education system lets those children down, and I hope in my life time to see a proper levelling up of education so that those children I meet are given the chance to shine they deserve, and I am encourage that universities are making great inroads - I am amazed when I hear friends with kids at privates saying that they are being penalised by uni’s for their private education when it is long overdue that uni’s recruit on talent not entitled education.

Most large Charities do hire mainly graduates at entry level @PresentingPercy so ? doing a job that plenty of non grads could do. Depending on the department, they’ll want evidenced campaigning or fundraising experience too from grads. They may not pay as much but they’ll expect plenty of hard work, determination and a great deal of passion. As for it not being ‘Prestigious’, being part of an organisation that makes a difference either in humanitarian, environmental or political policy terms is not second rate. The vast majority of graduate jobs are at ‘basic’ level in most sectors but joining the Charity sector will give your DDs friends good longer term opportunities whether that’s in Fundraising (Marketing), Comms, Campaigns, HR or Finance. DH is Strategy Director of a well known Animal Welfare Charity - personally, the fact that he’s been heavily involved in various initiatives that have improved the welfare of animals in the U.K. & Internationally & the quality of what’s on our plates as well as sitting on various Government sub committees, I personally find admirable and in my eyes prestigious. Even my rather judgemental mother would I’m sure agree after having seen him on TV a couple of times.

Sorry OP, this is going completely off agenda!

flourandeggs I also work in a similar field to you and earn peanuts. I would be perfectly happy if my son ended up working in a similar field, if that's what he wants. I was state educated and so was DS until secondary age, and he worked bloody hard in a disruptive class in a not very good primary school to do as well as he has. But I now have the opportunity to give him the education that I wish I'd had. We don't ski, or have nice cars, or a fancy house, or an exciting social life, because none of those things hold any interest for us. But DS comes out of school most days pretty much glowing with what a great day he's had. And that does matter to me. I don't think he 'deserves' those experiences more than anyone else - but he doesn't deserve them less either. I agree that it would be wonderful if education were levelled up for all children, and I'm happy to pay higher taxes to help that happen. But the truth is, almost everyone with children and money will end up using that money to give their children an advantage - whether that's through private education or mind-opening holidays or out-of-school clubs or tertiary education or a house deposit or an inheritance. Pick any 'achingly middle class' family and they are all just choosing different ways to confer that advantage.

Sorry for any confusion, I posted a screenshot of the school’s results but then realised it showed the name of the school which I didn’t want to include, so MNHQ kindly deleted the image!

Private v state is so subjective to where you live! I live in a rural county with almost half the school funding of some of the leafy parts of London where family are. It seems like selection by house price there yet their schools get so much more money, it's very unfair. No grammar schools here either so choice is reduced.

For us it's private, having started in a state primary. Not only for the smaller classes and better exam results but for the all round experience and we are very happy with it. I say that as an ex-comprehensive school teacher who knows just how much lesson time some children will try to waste and how that impacts on the others. Particularly an issue for the middle ability children in my experience, I would hate to be a child putting up with that amount of disruption to their lessons every day.

Some children will do well anywhere but they don't necessarily do as well as they might in a nicer environment and don't always enjoy school. In my experience, opportunities in leadership, public speaking, extra curricular activities and the careers guidance are better in the independent schools here, but that may not be the case where you are.

Yes. DDs primary friends might do all of those things but they are now all 28/29 and appear to be coasting. However my point was that education doesn’t equal motivation. Only a few get to the top and I think DDs profession makes her pretty worthy too. She’s just not a charity.

I also noticed the middle class parental expectation put on her primary friends. The competitive parents - the parent quiz team who couldn’t believe they didn’t win - “but we are all graduates”! They had dc tutored from age 5. They got so engrossed in sports day, one mum who was over 6ft tall stood on her chair and bellowed encouragement to her very tall y6 to win all his sports races. They competed and they expected to win. Except DC didn’t appear to be that bothered in the end. One DD near us wasn’t allowed to mix with my fashion conscious DD (Same ages, same class at school) because DD wore a mini skirt and was allowed to go to the school disco. We were too common for them. You couldn’t make it up!

With a pending economic shit storm, I wouldn't even consider starting dc at fee paying schools now unless you have significant personal wealth and could afford the fees even if the worst happened, work wise. Judging from your op, I'd say you would be more than wise to go state.

Definitely don’t get him a Latin tutor if you are sending him to the comp. It won’t help him fit in.

@PresentingPercy - I’m quite sure DD1 does make a contribution. I assume your DC went to a prep so a bit ? about the team of parents expecting to win, I’d have thought quite a lot of the parents would be graduates. But as for the parents not letting their DD mix with yours - they sound appalling, see it as a bullet dodged that you didn’t have to mix with them! I’m quite sure my rather snobbish DM would tell you that anyone considering someone else too common to mix with was In all likelihood rather common themselves!

But I think you are bang on when it comes to middle class parental expectation and education not equalling motivation. Which is why i think many middle class children do well at State schools to bring us back to the OPs post! How DC will fair I think has a lot to do with what their parents expect of them both in terms of time invested in school work, attitude to studying, expectation they will go on to University, which University to choose etc. If there isn’t that expectation then I think the State system can undersell DC their potential, careers advice guidance are notorious for it!

And on another note, I think you might have previously gone under another name as the disco story rang a bell! If so, welcome back! While I’ve disagreed with you numerous times, you usually make me think. The travel section could do with you being back as well!

Thank you.

No. DD1 was at state primary. This is why attitudes of this minority were truly awful. A very high proportion of the quiz teams were not 100 per cent graduates! Maybe just the teachers’ team? I’m aware these are extremes but when you’ve put up with them for years, we just wanted to get away as all their dc were going to the local grammar (of course!). It was good for DD to be away from them. I do believe she developed into a very different person because her eyes were opened regarding opportunities. No regrets and we could easily afford it.

I do of course absolutely agree that DC should be encouraged to aim high. It’s long been something I’ve seen as very important and even the grammars here don’t help some DC do as well as they could. My cleaner’s DD for a start!

I see MN as a discussion. We don’t always have to agree with each other but some people are rather aggressive! Sadly I haven’t travelled for a while and holidays cancelled!!