Long term effect of coronavirus crisis on private school sector

[suk44]

I was reading an article in the Guardian today about the pressure some independent schools are under in the current situation, and how the ongoing uncertainty could hit the viability of some of them. Regardless of whether someone would be happy or unhappy with it, i''m thinking it is quite likely the sector is heading for a hugely difficult couple of years (like many other sectors of course) and especially since this isn't an issue that will be fully resolved anytime soon.

I understand some private schools were hanging on by their fingernails financially even before this crisis due to the huge increase in pension contributions, and now you have to add in the potential pressure from some parents for partially refunded fees for next term, international boarders having to fly home, and predictions of a deep recession (and therefore fewer that could afford to send their children to fee paying schools).

I'm wondering if we will end up seeing a greater number of such schools merging, closing or converting to state schools that we saw even after the 2008 recession, affecting even some big names?

Don’t take the word “ruffians” seriously. You will find many DC have very protective parents and they want small classes so DC are not overlooked. However they do want their DC to mix with whom they consider to be nice children. So they pay.

I paid. Two different private schools, one a highly sought after waiting list type of school, some (certainly not all) children were not nice to the point DD was miserable and we home educated for a while to take away the horribleness of it. State school, DD has a lovely group of friends and not one in her class has been unkind in the ways the private school children were. However sector aside there is no innoculation against unkind children.

Please can we stop with the ‘all private schools are great’ rhetoric. Yes some are amazing, some are not good. This is the same for state schools too.

Hmm my Dds school is above average. Not in the top ten state schools in the county. It’s better than my public school but equal academically to my small independent at primary.

Who is saying private schools are great? I know from personal experience that isn’t the case. So who is blindly saying this? It’s not unreasonable to say that private schools have greater teaching resources though, because they obviously do. That’s not to say they are better!

The best resource is usually the teachers. From my personal experience there are good and bad in both, though teachers are better trained in state. I expect the best resource at the moment is a strong available IT department!

There is always a tendency on MN education boards for people to assume that any remark is a generalisation. As Bubbles said, 'my child's private school is doing a great job in the current situation and I'm very happy to pay the fees' is not intended to translate into 'all private schools are great'. FWIW I wouldn't send my child to the private school down the road even if it were free, regardless of its history, reputation and status, because I don't like its ethos. Same as I wouldn't send him to one of the best performing state school in the area because it has a very heavy-handed church ethos. There are things we can all like and dislike about different state and private schools, even those with great reputations. And even though it is generally true that staffing resources are better in private schools, that's irrelevant if the teachers aren't great or if the school has furloughed most of them to save money (as has happened in some schools, I've read on here). Similarly, among friends with children in state schools, some are very happy with their current provision, others are very unhappy.

This is just my personal experience but my DC's prep does reasonably well academically - probably not much better than the state when you consider you have an above average cohort. People pay for the family atmosphere and the extras though. Forest school, lots of fields to play in, more sport, more drama, more music. The small class sizes don't just mean more attention from the teacher but more of a sense of being part of a community. The kids know each other - even in different years, all kids have a chance to shine and are known for something (sport, academics, some interesting hobby etc) and feel safe and happy at school. There's just no way you could recreate that level of attention in a class of 30.

I did look at some indies though where you wonder why on earth parents were paying. One I looked at the primary kids weren't allowed to run in the playground! The teaching methods were clearly outdated - no SEN provision at all. All it had going for it as far as I could see was an impressive looking building and a cute uniform.

On Local Education Authorities (LEAs) I would point out that they don't exist any more - academy chains and devolved budgets, local management of schools etc gradually stripped things away and then the government a few years ago decided that a lot of what was left should be separated from councils. What's left in council hands is admissions (even though they don't have the teeth or power to push academy schools and others that are quite separate from the local authority to accept anyone they don't want to), special educational needs and other things which other organisations don't see an easy way to make money out of.

And like all the schools, they were squeezed before the coronavirus crisis. I'm a parent governor at the primary where both my sons went - DS2 would be just finishing year 6 there and DS1 is at secondary already. The school was having to make really terrible decisions about redundancies - basically almost anyone other than class teachers is vulnerable and we are struggling to fill places because there are less children coming up to primary age here than there were a few years ago. I only know of one oversubscribed primary and it's near the nicest private housing in the area and where there is higher gentrification and owner-occupation.

What's left of pared back local authorities don't have the money to bail out private schools. They're struggling to support the remaining community schools and have been forced to semi-privatise schools improvement, governor services etc. And now there is the crisis, and there are many things which should be higher up the list.

I'm really surprised by the implication that state schools are generally leaving students to get on with stuff by themselves. This hasn't been our experience. Year 10 dd is doing video lessons online, asking questions via an internet forum and getting individualized feedback on work which she submits. She is also continuing to do groupwork with her peers via the internet for some subjects. The school is also using zoom to do live lessons for some of the younger kids. I understand that they have taken steps to ensure that disadvantaged children have appropriate access to the internet. The school has also been proactive about promoting good mental health, sharing lots of resources and ideas to help families and offering support where required.

My nephew's state secondary school is also doing classes via zoom. My primary age goddaughter is getting regular telephone calls from her class teacher to check welfare, progress etc. The primary school where I'm a governor is doing similar, and is offering a range of video classes/self-guided materials for children to be getting on with, with easy access to teacher support if the children need help. They are taking particular care to ensure that they are checking on the welfare of more vulnerable children, as this is obviously a concern.

The kids we know at private schools all seem to be proceeding with their education in a broadly similar manner. To be honest, I think it's really hard in the current circumstances for private schools to offer much added value, as we are all bound by the same lockdown restrictions. Consequently, if this goes on for much longer, it wouldn't be at all surprising if parents started to question what they were actually paying for, and some private schools may struggle to survive as a result.

I think concern was expressed earlier on the thread that some DC simply are not doing what is offered. They have disengaged. It’s difficult for some parents to get DC to do anything. If turns out my DNs are in this category. Simply refusing to engage. So what’s on offer makes no difference to them and we already know around 80% of vulnerable DC are not attending when they could. If that is PP children then my DNs are in that category. I do suspect the parents of privately educated DC might crack the whip a bit more.

No LA will bail out a private school but if a school is needed in that area it’s not a bad idea to take it over. If there isn’t a need, then it has to be left to close but then the DC going there might struggle to find other schools.

I wonder if they might be more attractive in the short-term. Smaller class sizes, smaller schools, easier to social distance.

It's not just an implication, @AlexaShutUp.

According to the Sutton Trust, there is a significant difference between state (21%) and private (57%) offering online learning, which is defined as online live or pre-recorded sessions by the teacher delivered to the children.

In either sector, you are fortunate if your children are in the group that are having online teaching. If you're in a state school, it is not the norm according to the Sutton Trust and it is only barely the norm even in private schools.

Newsnight has just published the homework return figures from DC to schools. It’s half the rate in state schools when compared to private schools. From vulnerable groups it’s 7%.

@BubblesBuddy that actually makes me very sad.
Poor children. We are failing them and no-one seems to care.

Well Newsnight did. The Head of Ofsted took part in the debate as well as Katherine Birbalsingh (if I’ve spelt that correctly) and Justine Greening. I think they certainly recognised the problem. The big debate is how DC are going to catch up because the mountain is getting steeper all the time. MN isn’t full of struggling families with no space and one computer (if that) for the whole family. There isn’t much recognition on here that so many DC are not doing the work and indeed that some schools are not following up on the vulnerable DC at all. I know some are but it’s patchy. Everyone on the programme was very worried about the attainment gap widening significantly.

I agree completely @BubblesBuddy

We know that there is a spike in domestic abuse but we aren't talking about the kids at home in dire circumstances, whose chance of escape is zero. Then in addition to the abusive situations, there are millions of kids who just aren't accessing education right now for a multitude of reasons: parental disinterest, lack of computers or what not.

MN so isn't the barometer of the country's children. If you read here, every state school teacher is doing zoom lessons online, from aged 5 to 18, and every child is talking daily to a teacher. Schools and/or councils are sending out hot meals to vulnerable kids.

Maybe some are doing the above but I suspect it's far from the norm.

Well done Newsnight.

The Sutton Trust are providing data on this. There are reports that for some DC, the PP money spent on them will count for nothing. How to get DC back to learning efficiently and effectively is now a huge challenge.

Absolutely, and that gap isn't just about wealth, either. At my son's school, the kids are pretty much universally academically able and self motivated almost by definition, plus the school puts a huge emphasis right from the start on the kids taking responsibility for managing their own learning, homework, communication with staff etc - which they can do because of the profile of their learners. Which means that remote learning is not only working very well, but also requires minimal parental involvement. By comparison, I have friends at another local independent school which is very good, but is of the smaller and more nurturing variety, and attracts a lot of children who have mild SEN or just need a lot of hand-holding and support. Parents there report that online learning isn't working very well at all, as the kind of support the children normally get in lessons just isn't replicable in a remote environment, so they don't feel that their children are getting a very effective education at the moment. And these are still 'privileged' kids, so that's before you add in the problems of school resources, home technology resources and parental disengagement that are widening the gap much more for lots of learners.

I have no doubt the parents of the privately educated DC are at least trying though. Of course the parents of the children with greater need will feel more disrupted but the privately educated with engaged parents are more likely to catch up. Those in disadvantaged areas in state schools are less likely to catch up. They go to school being behind in the first place.

Oh, I completely agree with you on that Bubbles.

My friend teaches in a "cheap" private school (probably the wrong term, but the fees are around half compared to other private schools in town). It went from single-sex to co-ed during the last recession, and has combined classes since. She's convinced covid will be the end of it.

It does have much better sports and performing arts facilities than any state schools I know, and it's more religious than local church schools. But in terms of academics, I'm not sure it's different from a good state school. Classes of up to 30 students, so having many of the same online teaching struggles as state schools. They're only doing video lessons with sixth formers.

I wouldn't be surprised if some parents pulled their children out to put them in state schools (as more and more have been doing the last few years) and others move their children to more expensive private schools with smaller class sizes and better online teaching - especially if it looks like schools may go online again in the future.

The fee structure would indicate higher numbers in the classes. You can’t get something for nothing. I know fees are not “nothing” but if they charge lower fees their business model is to get parents with less spare money who are possibly first time buyers and are not necessarily looking at the whole breadth of education on offer.

And I now see in the papers that private schools have been warned over colluding to fix fees and discounts during the pandemic.

I can see that schools are worried about remaining viable. I imagine some don’t want to reduce fees by too much or they simply won’t survive and want to know the market view of reductions. It’s not right that they do this but I guess it’s desperation. If school A offers 50% discount but if school B do does the same its bankrupt, and fears too many of its parents cannot afford full fees when things get back to normal, school B might try and coerce school A to reduce fees by a lesser amount. I can see it’s tempting.

I also think there are some private schools that carry quite a lot of bad debt and are barely viable anyway. One with 30 in a class might make me wonder about finances.

I just started a thread on the Coronavirus board about Yr10 GCSEs. Maybe I should move it. However having moved dd from an independent in Oct. due to bullying, we had to wait nearly three months to get a place in an excellent state school. I turned down another that had space but was ‘inadequate’. I have to say I am so relieved now, because our business may not survive this and the very thought of paying out £5,000 term fees would be sickening, or having to move her, if she had been happy there. As it is, I’m quietly relieved (although at the time it was hell).

There are parents at her old school, who I know have given notice, one parent with two children, and two others with a child each. These are just in the few that I am still in contact with.

State schools are not going to cope and I know the one parent with two, is considering the ‘inadequate’ school, as she hasn’t any other option, heartbreaking for her children to have to change when they are so happy. However, a school that is improving often gets the best resources and input going forward.

Having seen both sides, I am so impressed at the state system, from the pastoral support, to the teaching. The old school was stuffy by comparison and facilities lacking. The online teaching has been way ahead of the independent.

I think we need to consider the children in all this, not only their exams next year, but the impact on them maybe having to move and change schools, so if the government could support the independent sector to get through it, they should, because there sure aren’t going to be spaces in the state system, if our experience is anything to go by.