Shouldnt equal education be available to everyone?

[angell84]

I have just returned to the U.K. after a very long period abroad, and I am shocked at the school system in the U.K. I lived in another country where equal education was available to everyone.

Why do we have comprehensive, and independant and fee paying schools in the U.K? Why is better education given to those with money who can afford it? Shouldn't equal education be available to everyone?
The discrimination in education - is shocking in the U.K.

@Mumto2two I couldn’t agree more. You see much moaning about poor education and poor opportunities, when mostly it’s ‘you didnt put this on a plate and feed me with a silver spoon’. For people with drive, ambition and determination the opportunities are all there, despite significant obstacles.

I agree with you OP. The system in the UK is the root of deep inequality and social/class division in the UK. But, the truth is, the state education system is desperately underfunded. If it were not for that, the divisions would be nowhere near as significant. (I work in education)

Parents in the UK are absolutely obsessed with getting their child into the right school. It's much less of a big deal in other countries. What it comes down to is that children of less savvy or well - resourced parents lose out. So social inequality. The fact that a very small minority of kids get over the obstacles doesn't disprove that. Plenty fall by the wayside.

We could throw billions more into schools, and make them all ‘excellent’. But if a child or their parents, can’t be bothered to aim high...it won’t make a jot of difference.
My nephew’s parents never attended one single parent teacher meeting. They were too busy moaning about the unfairness of their kid not having the kit the other kids had. Even though the school even helped with that too. I spent months helping to get him into a good school..he had the world at his feet. Instead of his parents being joyful at getting a place..they were moaning about how early his bus was. It wasn’t an opportunity to them. It was an obstacle to a longer lie-in.
The school bent over backwards to help this boy. Pastoral care for him, was a department in itself..and when his parents couldn’t be arsed to make sure he was actually turning up at school. They started coming out to him. In the end, nothing made a difference. They were annoyed by the intrusion..it wasn’t ‘help’ to them. And now 8 years on, the boy is a working man. Stuck in a job that doesn’t inspire him or offer any salary growth or great prospects. And unbelievably, they all still moan about the rich kids having it all. They sneer at our success and our kids’ private schools, full of hardworking, aspirational kids like our own. It’s a mindset, that no amount of money or motivating, could ever change. The state can only do so much. Provide the opportunity to learn, which is what they do....but the rest I’m afraid, whether rich or poor...is down to us.

@phivephatphish I agree with you but I worry about the children who are perfectly capable but do not have drive, ambition, or self confidence.

My elder daughter is very bright and hard working, but is quiet, shy and she had no self confidence. She has a summer birthday and socially was much less mature than her friends at primary school - very much a follower than a leader. Academically she stood out at primary school, and she wasn't comfortable with that - she wanted to be like everyone else.

Our local secondary school ('satisfactory' in those days, which is equivalent to 'requires improvement' now) had a problem with poor behaviour and bullying. Some children did well there but they tended to be the confident popular ones - who could 'get away with' being clever because they were 'cool', sporty or popular for other reasons.

There was no way I would have sent my daughter there, so we went the independent route. I know we were lucky to have that choice, but I know two girls a couple of years older than my daughter who were bullied at the local secondary school and ended up at independents on full bursaries.

the state education system is desperately underfunded

I am not saying you are wrong but more funding isn't necessarily going to fix everything. There are huge disparities in funding per pupil within state schools. However, a study a few years ago found that there was no link between the level of funding a school achieved and how successful it was. That suggests other factors are at least as important as funding, if not more so.

Our local high performing grammar, is the least funded school in the county...

Is that a selective school?

He wanted that for himself, and he made sure he got it.

Kudos to your perfect boy. It's not that simple for everyone and it isn't always about not having ambition, but I'm sure you enjoy looking down your nose at the kids who don't achieve as much as your determined little angel

Not my angel..but thank you for your sarcasm. Always good to add to any discussion..

You didn’t say whether that school is selective.

Sorry Purple..yes it’s a grammar

When it comes to all education being "equal" is that meant in terms of input or output, ie should all pupils get the same level of support or should all children achieve the same?

I do not think that everyone should get the same level of support for the simple reason that some need more and some need less. I absolutely support SEN departments and specialists. I also don't think that the goal should be that everyone achieves the same - we are all different and that should be appreciated.

However, I do believe in an education system where there is a decent base level available to everyone. But education doesn't only happen in school, much happens at home too and as many have mentioned, not everyone gets the needed support from home.

The current system is not perfect, but I don't know any system that is in reality (on paper yes).

Not all grammar schools are selective.

Can you imagine why a school creaming off the most able pupils might get great results?

Yes all schools should offer an equal level of education and this isn't the case at all. Certain schools have parents desperate to get their children in whether it's by joining a religion, attending a place of worship, privately tutoring them to get them to pass an exam or simply moving house to be in a catchment. This then makes those desirable schools even more desirable and the others less so. But abolishing private schools isn't the answer. That would just lead to more demand for the 'better' schools in the state sector and more demand on those schools generally. There needs to be more investment in all state schools. If every state school offered equally great opportunities as the better ones then there would barely be a market for most private schools anyway.

Yes of course Purple. And the grammars in this area are well known for their heavily tutored intake, and continued requirement to tutor once they are there. That’s why they get the results they do. The school’s funding has very little to do with it. That’s why I was making that comparison. There is so much wrong with many aspects of the system, and some have better means to better themselves than others..but having a determination and aspiration to succeed, in whatever we do...whether it be academic, business, sport or whatever, is still very much imperative.

I agree @Mumto2two

We live in a 'deprived' area. We recently went to see a play held at the most esteemed grammar around here. The building literally looked as if it was falling apart, yet it is the school all parents will have in mind when entering the 11+ process. Compare that school to the non-selective secondary school near to us. This school has excellent facilities (the place is packed on weekends as so many classes are held there!). Teacher friends who have worked in this school (plus some non teaching staff) say the turnover there is high mostly due to the attitude of the parents along with behaviour/disruption during lessons. The only good thing is that the few who want to engage with the school end up with a lot of support from grateful teachers, and great facilities available to them. So, funding is not an issue for this school. Instead, the poor attitude towards education among parents/students needs focus. A shiny school with many kids and poor outcomes is just a sad situation, not 'equality' by any stretch of the imagination.

@JayDot500 - Sounds very similar to our local upper school. Long considered a priority for funding, and the best facilities by far all round. Sadly wasted on a significant contingent of ‘can’t be boverreds’. Parents also a problem for the many staff that also often choose to leave. This ‘inequality’ will always remain, as long as there are people who care..and people who quite frankly, don’t. The same contingent who will moan about the posh kids at the grammars and private schools around...and probably with the often too familiar, accusatory sarcasm of ‘looking down our noses’ up thread...

I've not read the whole thread so sorry if this has been said, but at least having some kids in private education takes some pressure off the state system by reducing numbes?

Also more and more universities are making contextual offers for kids who have studied in deprived area, under performing schools etc, so that's a step in the right direction.

@CherryPavlova I work in admissions at an independent school. All our bursaries are 100% off fees, plus a uniform allowance and transport to and from school if required. And our bursaries are funded out of fees income.

HelloDulling that’s very good but rare.

Do you pay for transport and sportswear or musical instruments too?

I’m assuming the bursaries are scholarship linked - is that purely academic? Or music and sports too? Is there a limitation from things like a foreign language paper?

I know of children who have had 100% bursary and full support. I don’t think it is that rare.

@Mumto2two that 'looking down our noses' comment made me chuckle. People love to jump in with their accusatory pants. I have experienced being a student in an inner London school, lived in a deprived borough too. I know many of us simply weren't being encouraged. Myself included. I was definitely one of the better behaved, and managed to escape actual carnage when I entered the top sets in Year 10. Even there, you could tell which of us had involved parents. Parents who would ask about homework, or want to explore ways to get their grades up. Most of these parents were recent immigrants. My parents set the bar very low, so I just towed that line until I got a little older and realised I could do sooo much better for myself. Still, it was later than it could have been.

With this as my own experience, I will now be very involved with my DC, but we are top earners living in an area with good primary schools and not so good secondaries. Private or grammars will be considered, but whatever happens, the best I can do is just to be involved and engaged.

Germany had Waldorf, Jenaplan, Montessori and International schools - whether going private led to state recognised qualifications is another issue. Whilst they do not operate one size fits all, their tiered system of Mittel, Real and Gymnasium with many SEN lumped into Förderschulen and no possibility of home educating means that many pupils, especially with SEN or from a migration background, end up discriminated against. The grass is not greener ime.

I was go to say the same. Germany has an increasing number of private schools and private international schools.

And within the German state school system there are most definitely academic criteria to determine whether you can go to a Gymnasium (Grammar school up to 18) or to a Realschule (comprehensive school ending at 16). In other words there most definitely not a 'one size fits all' education!

OP, the reason you are "goading" is because you've refused to name the country that you claim has equal education for everyone (whatever that means). People are left to assume it's because you're aware that no education system is perfect and your idea of "equality" in education probably comes with some pretty significant downsides.

I too was wondering which country the op was living..?