Shouldnt equal education be available to everyone?

[angell84]

I have just returned to the U.K. after a very long period abroad, and I am shocked at the school system in the U.K. I lived in another country where equal education was available to everyone.

Why do we have comprehensive, and independant and fee paying schools in the U.K? Why is better education given to those with money who can afford it? Shouldn't equal education be available to everyone?
The discrimination in education - is shocking in the U.K.

Charity status for private schools has recently been abolished in Scotland.

I wonder what might ensue if charity status is withdrawn in this way? Afterall, independent schools have much to comply with, in order to maintain that status. So perhaps that means they can scrap bursary pots that are funded by other, often hard pressed fee paying parents like myself; and reduce our fees instead. And they could scrap community schemes and inter school initiatives, that often serve to integrate schools within a community.. Will be interesting to see how it pans out in Scotland..

I’m interested to see how that plays out this year. Scottish Indies educate c4% of school population (compared to 7% in Eng), perhaps the Scottish state system can absorb future closures.

The reason why it’s not happened here in England is probably because the Treasury think they’ll be a net loss to public purse if a swathe of indie schools close down as a result of removing charitable status. Displaced pupils, teaching / school operations staff and less schools paying into teachers’ pension pots.

Don’t think any meaningful reform to our wider schools’ system will be to euthanise the Independent sector.

Many of the schools are charitable trusts, not charities, some hundreds of years old. Unravelling then would take years through the courts

Also agree with @Mumto2two - first thing to go will be meaningful bursary schemes. Who wins here besides The Guardian and Novara Media?

OP, the reason you are "goading" is because you've refused to name the country that you claim has equal education for everyone (whatever that means). People are left to assume it's because you're aware that no education system is perfect and your idea of "equality" in education probably comes with some pretty significant downsides.

The only country I am aware of for providing some sort of equal quality education is Finland. But that is dependent on some very distinctive feature of the country, and is not likely to be replicated in the UK.

And I am glad to see most of the MNs are much more sensible than the OP.

Charity status for private schools has recently been abolished in Scotland

No it hasn't. They are losing charitable business rates relief. Those that are charities will still be charities and will continue to benefit from the other tax reliefs available to charities.

@CherryPavlova Anyone who can afford to send a child independently- whether with bursary or not is definitely not poor.

My dad died when we were young. My mum worked part time taking home less than £10k/year. Is that poor enough for you? 2 of us went through private school with full fees paid in the days of assisted places and the youngest one had full fees paid via bursary and scholarship. We didn’t go on the school trips and we had second hand uniform. We all have highly successful careers and all send our own DC privately, happily paying full fees in the knowledge that our full fees will subsidize someone else’s children.
There is a single parent on MN who previously posted about sending 4 DC through private schools with an income of £20k. It isn’t impossible. But most ‘poor’ people won’t have the skills to apply for a bursary or scholarship in the first place. I think private schools should be actively looking for children to support (ie going into the local sink school) rather than waiting for motivated parents to come knocking.

@prh47bridge Thanks so much for this. Great info!

ow I manage it is I work very hard and forego any sort of social life, hobbies, luxuries or vices for myself to pay for private tuition, private music tuition, extra swimming lessons (above what the school provides), sports coaching and also some hobbies.

Um, plenty of people work hard and forego luxuries and still wouldn't be able to afford that. Not all hard-working people have a high enough wage.

phivephatphish The assisted places scheme was a bit different. £10 k in 1980 is equivalent to over £43.5k now - not exactly breadline income. One assumes that was boosted by widowed mothers allowance, child benefit, possibly your father’s pension too.
I’m really sorry your father died - that doesn’t necessarily make you poor.
Your fees aren’t subsidising others. Most bursaries come from long standing charitable trusts set up when schools create for the education of the poor became the preserve of the wealthy.

@CherryPavlova
Given your assertion that ‘Anyone who can afford to send a child Independently- whether with bursary or not is definitely not poor’
What annual income are you defining as being ‘definitely not poor?

@CherryPavlova. He died in 1990, so you’ll need to revise your figures by 10 years. There was no pension and no life insurance. No holidays, clothes from jumble sales, pretty much second hand everything. No heating in the winter. Please don’t patronise me by telling me that I don’t know what poor is. Being poor drove me to where I am today. I vowed that I’d never have to say ‘we can’t afford it’ to my children, and I never have.

£10 k in 1980 is equivalent to over £43.5k now

That's a lot of money. Not one person in mywhole famy earns that much

Our daughter’s school bursary scheme, as are many others...are not funded by long standing charitable trusts, they are most certainly, funded by the general income pot.
We are not talking the likes of Eton here, and other such long established schools, a lot of independent schools, are relatively new enterprises, and do not have the wealth these schools have. Yet another grossly misinformed statement on here...

That's a lot of money. Not one person in mywhole famy earns that much

However, phivephatphish has pointed out that CherryPavlova is 10 years out. £10k in 1990 is equivalent to less than £23k today.

Sorry from 1990 it’s just over £21, 000 plus benefits. Significantly less, it’s true. That really isn’t the norm for independent schools. There are a few like Christ’s that do provide for a wider income range but the vast majority don’t.
What’s second hand clothes got to do with it? Even the public schools have a much used second hand uniform trade. Lots of people don’t have holidays.
Oddly, I’m not dissimilar but much older. The difference is I think there should be equality of opportunities for all.

Poor is homelessness. It’s food banks. It’s no hot water. It’s an electricity key you can’t afford to top up. Poor is living hand to mouth. It’s walking to school despite it being two miles away and it pouring down. Poor is not having a coat.

My experience of bursaries is they generally go to the middle classes. They are usually less than 50% so you need quite a bit to top up in addition to transport, uniform, laptops, sportswear. In some cases, it’s clever accounting to reduce disposable income.
It’s very rarely the homeless child. Very rarely the looked after child. Very rarely the child of a single parent on benefits, living in a deprived community.

There are the odd cases where the poorer children are helped - OAT offered a sixth form scholarship to two pupils to Gresham’s, for example but that was private funding by the OAT board and not generosity from Gresham’s.

I have two children one in state and one in private - the schools suit them as individuals. The one in state did not want to go private as he prefers to walk to school and have local friends and he is in an excellent much sort after state school. What I think is the REAL shame is that the UK government does not invest to make ALL state schools as excellent as each other so that all children get an excellent education wherever they live. Private schools are about choice and I don't get the argument about not having them. The smaller class sizes suit her and I pay for that option. If all the private school children went to state schools the government would have to fund their places so there would be even less money spent on schools.

Yes @CherryPavlova... I have been there. In that pithy poor trap you describe. And believe it or not..poor people can have aspirations too. To better themselves, and their children too. It is not wealth that divides us in that sense..it is aspiration.

What I think is the REAL shame is that the UK government does not invest to make ALL state schools as excellent as each other so that all children get an excellent education wherever they live.

They do but

It is not wealth that divides us in that sense..it is aspiration

Totally agree

Education is there for those that want it.

Not all children learn via the current system, a lot isn’t relevant to their lives. Some school spend more money on pastoral care because it’s needed, just to get the kids in the door.

School is no longer and walk in school sit down and learn in rows - it’s kids who don’t have the basic equipment, the right uniform, they haven’t eaten or even slept, listening to parents or neighbours arguing or loud music, being woke up by police raids, or gangs in the street. They have worries other kids have never even thought of.

It’s fine for Lucy waking up her clean bed, having breakfast made and a car collect her for lessons, having the right equipment and her only thought is what to wear later to her yoga class.

But not all state schools are equal, are they? That's why some get rated Outstanding whereas you might get unlucky and have none in your area, you might have ahigher proportion of Requires Improvement or ony satisfactory etc

@CherryPavlova, ok, so I clearly didn’t grow up poor, by your standards. But my dad did (almost certainly a contributing factor to his early death). But as @Mum2totwo says being poor doesn’t mean you lack aspiration- he was determined that his children didn’t have the life he had. Interestingly, as one of 6 siblings, 4 of the six chose to carry on living in poverty, as do their children. All 6 presented with the same set of circumstances, 2 chose a different/better path.
Your suggestion I think there should be equality of opportunities for all is admirable, but how on earth do you propose that it ever happens? (Communism doesn’t work). People who can give their children opportunities will and those who can’t/don’t want to/would rather spend the money on fags and booze won’t.

Well given one of our young family members recently left a ‘needs improvement’ school, to study at Cambridge, that clearly doesn’t really hold you back either. He wanted that for himself, and he made sure he got it.
While another nephew who had the brains but zero drive & aspiration, and was at an excellent top performing grammar, left with a couple of Ds. He couldn’t even be arsed to go to school half the time... as I said before. It is aspiration that divides them. One has none, and the other has it in spades.