Shouldnt equal education be available to everyone?

[angell84]

I have just returned to the U.K. after a very long period abroad, and I am shocked at the school system in the U.K. I lived in another country where equal education was available to everyone.

Why do we have comprehensive, and independant and fee paying schools in the U.K? Why is better education given to those with money who can afford it? Shouldn't equal education be available to everyone?
The discrimination in education - is shocking in the U.K.

While we have vast council housing estates and separate suburbia education will reflect this.

Same with high rise flats, more families in a smaller space, over crowed schools, less employment opportunities, families living day to day, what’s the point in education?

@angell84 sorry that you’ve felt under siege on this thread. Your question is totally valid and a good one. Of course people question all the choices they make in their life and to imply otherwise is patronising.

What UK provides all kids is equal access to education, not access to equal education. To aim to do that would be in many parts ‘levelling down’ which serves no one. Or just a bit too Marxist for most people.

The state education system which educates 93% of the school aged population is the most unequal of them all and has to be tackled first. To tackle that you need to address housing, health, religious institutions, early years provision, tuition market, real living wage etc

Of course there’s structural inequalities baked into having an independent schools sector - but I think with more fine tuning there’s potential for the sector to do a lot to address that through working in partnership with state schools.

You don’t make social progress by cancelling the bits that work well; or by reading anti-private schools propaganda.

Reading back, I have been called "a fool" "bonkers", "a shit stirrer", "a fucker", and more.

How do you guys think it is okay to talk to some one like that?

They're state-educated, OP - I hope you're not suggesting it's their fault that the system is stacked against them!

@angell84 p.s. If you’re following PSPR they’re totally clueless with no deep expertise in indie sector.
Many agree they are just #AbolishEton in more respectable clothes (minus Holly Rigby, anyone remember her?).

You do like reporting don’t you OP?

About 10 years ago, there was a scheme where children from poor families were funded to do extra curricular activities. Eg drama. They could choose. I thought it was a great idea. It got scrapped.

The entire system should be equalised.

This is just not possible - fine, get rid of private schools, grammars, faith schools....

And then you're left with catchment schools which vary widely, by income of course. Nothing really to do with the quality of the teachers, the facilities, or anything so much as the proportions of parents who give a shit and those who don't.

Lotteries are the only way I can see around this and have been very unpopular.

My DD goes to a state school that believes in an equal outcome for all children. There is no setting in any subject. I think it's really unfair on the bright kids. Education should challenge all children.

I don't remember that, and I wouldn't expect schools to charge for drama clubs, but I know that in some schools, pupil premium funding is used for eg music lessons for disadvantaged children.

One of the problems is that, even when there is no direct cost, disadvantaged children are less likely to take part in this sort of activity - either for practical reasons such as not being able to stay after school because they are reliant on school or public transport, or are young carers, or because they think that sort of activity is not for children like them, or simply because it doesn't occur to them that they might enjoy it.

I just did a quick check and France, Germany and the US all have a higher percentage of children in private education than in the UK (6.5%) and England alone (7%), though this does rise for sixth form.
So the vast majority of children are in the state system here, which is 'free' (paid by all through taxes).
It is not on to criticise this country's educational system, comparing it to another country, without saying what that other country is.
As you refuse to (unless you have while I have been writing), then how can anyone accept your argument that all state education was equal there? I find that hard to believe, unless all schools had the exact same equipment, population distribution, access to external resources, teacher quality and ethos. And that is practically impossible.
Taking one of your criticisms: your arguments against sets. It would not have been beneficial for either of my children, one a studious high achieving child, the other a non academic one, to be in the same set. One would not get the stimulation and breadth required to reach their potential, the other would have been discouraged by their inability to progress without a more considered and less rigorous approach. Therefore being in different sets geared to their individual ability (and always with the option to move up or down) has benefited them both.
The educational system is far from perfect, and in some areas could be considered in a crisis. However, not all children, circumstances and situations are the same. A rural school with fewer children and limited teacher availability that may have to have blended years is not going to be run or equal to a city school several times the size with many more subject specific teachers. That is not to say the rural children are getting a poor education. But certainly a different one.
Likewise an inner city school whose demographic is poorer with less educational attainment of the parents would be difficult to compare favorably to a school in an affluent area with high achieving parents. How does one change this? Busing children from one neighborhood to another? The resentment of those being bussed is huge (I lived through this in the US in the 70s).
The difference between the schools are: size, location, the student population, parental population and the teachers. You can't change most of these factors.
It is natural to want your child to go to the best school available. As this is a capitalist country, people are free to go where they can afford, and if they can afford to live near a school with a good reputation they will. This in turn will increase the property values and it becomes ever more exclusive. These parents will have high expectations and will demand these be met. They will be sure their children are worked and are working to their full potential. This puts pressure on the schools to be measured in such a way to demonstrate their quality (league tables) and ensure they hire the teachers that can deliver.
I would also add that some children will never achieve as much as others academically, no matter what the quality of education. The aim should be to provide those that can the opportunity to, and for others the opportunity to reach their best in whatever that may be. We need far more plumbers, carers, and manual workers etc than we do bankers and politicians. But the mantra seems to be that everyone needs to get a university education and that just isn't necessary.
You are correct that the educational system is inequitable, but to declare it so ferociously while the same could be said of most countries, and not suggest any solution (which one would hope you agree is the goal of this societies), is in itself unreasonable.

There’s (probably) only one country which has made it illegal to charge fees for schooling: Finland. Dunno about North Korea.

Now to be fair, Finnish state schools do get great results, but it’s probably due to a wide range of factors. Given that the other 190-odd countries in the world also have private schools it seems a bit unfair to pick on the UK.

@JuanSheetIsPlenty so what about the poorer people who can't pay for a place in a private school? Why should they have leas options for their children.
......
If the children are bright, enthusiastic, interested in learning, they will get a place at a good school. Not everyone at a private school is from a well off background and the grammar schools select on academic performance only.

Angell: I was at a book club here in the U.K, and a man that was present bragged about what school he went to, and looked down his nose at some of the other people in the group, who went to lesser schools.

I remember looking at him with incredulity, thinking "you are a man in your forties, who cares what school you went
....
Too right, he was obviously someone very successful in life. People who have it do not feel the need to flaunt it. He likes being a relatively big fish in a very small pond.

I think it is Sweden that has only state schools with a commitment to good education. Whilst I applaud that, I don't think our system is too bad but parents do need to do research on schools and areas in advance of their children applying. From what I see, that is what most people do.

Very good schools near me both state and private.

The discrimination in education - is shocking in the UK

I agree but not for the reasons you have outlined. There is a massive discrepancy in the quality of education between state schools: between those in affluent leafy areas, and those in deprived cities. The best state schools achieve comparable grades to the best private schools.

The aim shouldn’t be to deprive any DC of an excellent education, instead it should be to drive to improve investment and standards in ALL state schools so that an excellent education is available to every child. Look to raise the bar, not to lower it!

Excellent post @Pipandmum

There are heaps of 'should's around state education, OP - especially many around SEN education.

But the families whose DC are in state education have often got more to worry about than what other people are doing over the fence in the private sector - if those children were also state-educated it would put even more of a strain on the system so I don't see how banning private education would help.

For the families who can't afford to go private, their children would be worse-off. And children in the wealthier families would continue to enjoy advantages such as private tuition to ensure they're not disadvantaged by a struggling state education system.

Outlawing educational advantages for the children whose parents can afford it doesn't solve the problem for the poorer kids - it just makes sure everyone's kept down.

@angell84 The basis of your original post was "I have just returned to the U.K. after a very long period abroad, and I am shocked at the school system in the U.K. I lived in another country where equal education was available to everyone."

I am sure that by now you have had sufficient time that you said was needed to catch up on the replies. How come you still haven't answered the simple question? Which country are you comparing to?

If you can't elaborate on your comments, it's about time this forum puts your statement down as an ill-informed leftist rant hiding behind equality as a reason and blaming the system for your ills. Let's then end this discussion.

@Pipandmum very well written thoughts.

The Swedish system is only "equal" on paper. In reality it is much more segregated than the UK system, and all funded by tax money.

To start with, people live much more segregated lives. So, you'd have to actively choose a school away from you to get into another crowd so to speak (and with no school buses, that is hard as the society is based on both parents working). Many schools are privately run but state funded so the transparency on how they pick their students leaves much to ask for. The school where some of the royal children goes to is exactly like that. Not just local children, but all coming from wealthy areas and families. Funny that, considering it is officially a school open to all. It's been proven many times that the system is unequal - and that is all funded by tax money.

At least in the UK, if you want an "all singing and dancing" school with everything shiny etc, you pay for it and don't expect tax money to pay for you.

Nothing else in life is equal OP, so why single out schools? If you have money you can queue jump in the NHS and have planned treatment at a preset time (that doesn’t change) in your own private suit. You can buy better food for your family, you can afford to heat your home properly, you can afford to run a car which gives you greater access to life. If you have DC you can send them to an endless list of extra curricular activities which broaden their horizons and give them life skills. Back in the last century several countries tried making us all equal. It was called communism.

@GreenTulips That is the whole point of education. To uplift, and provide better opportunities . To dismiss that would mean staying trapped in the same vicious cycle you referred to.

@Spoiltbutnothappy Exactly the point. What appears as "equal" is not exactly so, it comes with hidden baggage.

As far as UK is concerned, free and compulsory education for all is a noble goal. Granted the system is not perfect, but that requires addressing the right areas such as better funding for state schools. The solution is not to abolish everything else.

I think OP desires a society of clones where everyone is the same and there is no differentiation whatsoever. This goes against the very DNA of human race which is to celebrate individuality.

As usual there's this polarised argument about very rich and very poor. Most people are neither! 93% of children are in state schools and they are not all deprived. I went to state schools, my dcs have attended/attend comprehensive schools. We are just middle-ranking people just middling along. We are by no means poor but couldn't pay for private education, certainly not at an esteemed place. I do agree that some children suffer a mediocre education but that is in some cases political, eg the non-setting.

I work in a "bad" school. The facilities are great. The teachers very committed. But there is nothing you can do about many of the parents. They just do not give a fig. And many of the children are just not academic - I feel very sorry for them because they are square pegs being forced into the modern world of round holes. And, incidentally, if the school spots any "potential" they're on that child massively with a great deal of encouragement and support.

‘A left wing rant dressed up as equality’ I think this is exactly what it is. And badly dressed at that! I’m not sure why we are even perpetuating this nonsensical assertion either. It really is another online Diane Abbot...makes nonsensical statements, but can’t back them up when challenged. It also helps to have an understanding of basic economics, when making any assertions on consumerism, no matter what the product is.
As mentioned countless times, there is free provision of education to everyone here in the UK. That is something that IS equally accessible to all. For some people like myself, we may choose not to take that option..for many number of reasons. While our local state grammars have fantastic grades and are considered a great state option by most...we feel that education is far more than attaining a set of grades. Yes the state can provide the basics in terms of curricular predefined teaching, and that is vitally important, but we personally wanted more than that. It’s a luxury that is our right to choose. It won’t necessarily offer better teaching, or ensure better grades for our child..but it will offer certain ‘luxuries’, such as access to sports and music facilities..and options to participate in activities and trips, that we feel would benefit our child. These are not basic educational requirements, from a state perspective at least, and people having a choice, is imperative to society and it’s growth. A truly homogeneous society, is an impossible dream I’m afraid. It is innate in most (not all) to aspire to better things, be it a nicer car, bigger house..or a ‘luxury’ education. Isn’t it what drives us to achieve and do well? I have a sibling who has never aspired to anything...she too believes she is owed something by the state. Feels aggrieved that other people have more options than she has...but can’t be bothered to do anything about it. We both had the same upbringing..the same platform to springboard from...it’s a choice we make. Stay where you are and let life suck you down..or do all you can to rise up above it. Uplift..it’s a powerful mindset.

some one right above you has just said that state schools are very equal in Scotland

I haven't read the full thread but whoever said that is wrong. The divide between state schools in well off areas and those in poor areas is considerably worse than in England and is one of the reasons Scottish education is performing so poorly.

The main two things that improve educational outcomes are good parenting and good teaching in schools. Sort these issues out and everyone gets a great education!

@GreenTulips That is the whole point of education. To uplift, and provide better opportunities . To dismiss that would mean staying trapped in the same vicious cycle you referred to

You missed my point, in that uneducated parents trapped in poverty pass that sentiment in to their children. They don’t see the point in education. Education isn’t something they value - it used to be among the poorer classes when only the rich had an education, now everyone goes it appears to be less valued.

I don’t know how you’d change that.