Shouldnt equal education be available to everyone?

[angell84]

I have just returned to the U.K. after a very long period abroad, and I am shocked at the school system in the U.K. I lived in another country where equal education was available to everyone.

Why do we have comprehensive, and independant and fee paying schools in the U.K? Why is better education given to those with money who can afford it? Shouldn't equal education be available to everyone?
The discrimination in education - is shocking in the U.K.

Whilst they definitely increase polarisation of opportunities' private schools are not about to disappear. Its about elitism not qua6of education. Personally, I think if you are privately educated you should not be eligible for university bursaries and grants. There should be a higher cost for privately educated pupils that offset the bursaries for poorer students.

That advantage in getting to best universities should be used to the greater good.

Aim higher should be expanded and universities should have minimal quotas of state educated pupils.

@CherryPavlova - another nonsensical sweeping statement. Do you know how many children were on bursaries in my daughter’s small independent school? All heading off to uni on grants..
And as for charging more for non bursary students, to cover more bursary places.. of well what can I say?? Don’t you think we give enough as it is to the state pot, without funding a few extra free places for others on top?? Many families like myself, struggle enough as it is to afford the fees, you are clearly quite ignorant as to quite how much a struggle that can be.

OP: "You shouldn't have more choice because you have money!"

Nonsense. Money brings choice. Little equality anywhere as far as I can see.

You can choose to try for the 11+. What about religious schools?

What about people who pay for tuition for music lessons? playing the piano, flute, doing ballet? My ds's playing football, costs money.
Money talks. That's life.

The OP is also shocked that we still have an aristocracy and a House of Lords. There is a good argument for changes to the upper chamber, but these things and many private schools are ancient parts of the fabric of this country. It's easy to say "modernise, abolish 'em" but not quite as simple or consequence free to do.
I'm shocked OP that you are shocked about the school system here. It has got more equitable, not less over the last couple of decades. More state pupils admitted to Oxbridge, huge expansion of university places, more social mobility in the professions.The idea that we still have some rigid class system where you can't move up or down is just not true.
Sure, there is still a snob element that cares if you went to Eton or Harrow, but it really is a vanishingly small group. Most independent schools bear no relation to Eton. They are full of the kids of self made parents, often second generation immigrants many of whom are on bursaries and scholarships.
I have lived in several countries and the class system exists everywhere - the groups just have different names and power bases.
Perhaps expand your reading beyond the Guardian.

Mum2two do you really not understand poor looks like? Anyone who can afford to send a child independently- whether with bursary or not is definitely not poor.
Do you not realise how much the state subsidised independent schools by?
Yes I do the advaantages conferred should be used to increase social mobility by making the universities more accessible to poorer state pupils.

WHICH COUNTRY?????

Why won't you answer the question? You want us to compare school systems, so at least twll us the country so we can debate the pros and cons of the school systems.

I actually don't believe that there is a country without private schools. I live in the Netherlands where private schools are not a "thing" and even the royal family goes to state schools BUT they do exist. Not many but they do exist.

CherryPavlova the state doesn't subsidise independent school. Many are charities and pay taxes accordingly, not as a business.

Poorer state pupils do have access to uni via student loans and an open admissions system. Why poorer pupils may not go to uni is down to factors other than the presence of independent schools.

Has OP left?
Gone back to whichever country it was that was so fabulous?

@CherryPavlova I probably understand poverty more than most on here. It is what drove me forward in life. And it is why I value the choices we make with our money, and why our priorities, are perhaps different to that of our neighbours... So please don’t patronise those who make choice in this way. There comes a point in any economic model, whereby penalising those who earn, to the point of feeling they are subsidising others more than their own..where incentive to earn is quashed altogether... so yes if that’s what people feel would work in society, then goodness help us.. I’m astonished at the nonsense being doled out on this thread

Do you not realise how much the state subsidised independent schools by?

Probably not as much as they subsidise state schools.

By "the state" do you mean "U.K. tax payers" which I would imagine the vast majority of parents who use independent schools are.

Actually it's in the fields of music and sport that paying makes the most difference, not "book-learned" subjects. Is there any child or has there been any child who has become a successful classical musician without any out-of-school lessons or musician parents? You can become a lawyer/accountant/historian etc etc by going through the state school system. I'd like to see an aspiring musician do that. My dd's state-school GCSE music teacher could not read music .

Do you not realise how much the state subsidised independent schools by?

It depends what you class as a subsidy. The highest figure I've seen includes a number of items I wouldn't personally class as a subsidy and comes in at £2.7bn. Against this, if independent schools didn't exist the cost to the state of educating the pupils involved would be over £3.5bn.

France for example has some boarding schools, but they are designed for children with learning or behavioral issues, or who live rurally.
Private schools are far more of a thing in the UK than in most, if not all other countries.
I think that having a separate, in many ways nicer system for those who can pay has a toxic effect on our society. Our children should be encouraged to mix as much as possible, not the reverse. If it wasn't possible to buy their way out of the system, those in power, and the people who influence them, would care more about the state system.

Unfortunately, in most parts of the country there is little in the way of state funded or supported music provision. There used to be, but it was cut.

@CherryPavlova you're wrong about affording independent and poverty. I grew up in poverty, as in parents didn't eat so that we could. Clothes from jumble sales or passed on by families at church that could see how we struggled.
My brother went to Chet's on a full scholarship/bursary, and then attended university on a grant (after abolition of maintenance grants and introduction of fees). He was smaller, slighter, and had terrible asthma as a result of his living conditions in early childhood.
His case is hardly unique. The top-tier day school where I live now takes able children on full bursary, and pays for their uniform, trips etc. It's part of their commitment to education for all. Why should those children be penalised at university?

Smaller and slighter than his peers

@CherryPavlova can you clarify what you mean by state subsidises independent sector?

Are you referring to the MoJ grants to independent schools so children of the armed forces serving abroad, can have stability of education. That is a MOJ employee benefit should parents choose to take it up.

You could argue that Parents choosing Independent schools are subsidising the state education for a service they never use. I don’t know a single fee paying parent who objects to paying their fair share to improve state education.

It's impossible to eliminate all inequalities without creating an incredibly authoritarian and repressive system.

Let's imagine that all fee-paying and selective schools have been abolished, and I'm a very wealthy parent who is now expected to send my child to the local state school.

My first plan is to purchase a house within the catchment area of the very best state school I can find. House prices in such areas rocket, and only the children of the wealthy end up at these schools.

Abolish catchment areas and institute a complete lottery so that children could be allocated to any school within many miles? I'll home educate my child. Perhaps I'll employ a full-time private tutor.

Ban home education? I'll start looking at the top international boarding schools. Whatever my response is, it won't be to send my child to a failing school and try to improve it. The people who advocate abolition of private schools aren't actually considering how it would work in practice. The elite would find alternatives. The rest might pile into an already overstretched state system, and game admissions processes to their benefit, as many middle-class parents already do.

@prh47bridge pls could you provide the source for your figures re cost of subsidising v cost of to go to for abolition of private’s? thanks.

@Misandei - The figures for subsidies came from www.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/05/critics-take-aim-at-subsidies-given-to-private-schools - this article has the highest figures I've seen.

Around 50% of independent schools are charities which entitles them to some tax exemptions, of which the most significant is exemption from VAT. They also get relief from business rates and some other reliefs. According to the Guardian that comes to £2.5bn. VAT alone is estimated at £1.6bn in various sources, although that assumes all parents would pay the extra fees rather than switch to state education.

The additional £200k consists largely of schemes that pay fees for some children - the MoD scheme mentioned by Ratrace123, a similar scheme for diplomats and a scheme aimed at getting children talented in music or dance from underprivileged backgrounds into one of 8 independent schools that will help them to develop their performing skills. These schemes between them pay over £130M to independent schools. That, on the Guardian's figures, leaves a further £70M from other schemes. I have no idea where they get that figure from.

The Independent Schools Council state that there are 630,000 pupils in independent schools. This figure appears to be generally accepted. Including central services, the average funding per pupil in the state system is around £5500. Multiplying the two figures together gives the £3.5bn figure I quoted.

Do not forget that a large number of independent schools are actually special schools... whose pupils are in the main paid for by LA's SEN budgets. Fees which greatly exceed those of independent schools in my area, due to the staff:pupil ratios needed, the need for pupils to board, and the specialist equipment necessary.

Thanks for correcting me @prh47bridge MoD not MoJ! I would be very sceptical of anything the Guardian prints on subsidies - they love a good indie school bashing. It’s inverse snobbery sport.

It is rather complicated though isnit it.
It would be difficult and disruptive if senior diplomats and military personnel were expected to take their children with them when serving abroad. Especially in countries where there may not be equivalent schooling.

Many companies may also offer senior workers on a secondment abroad, private schooling. So, private or independent schooling is part of their package.

As regards the charity status. This is a legal definition, and becomes complicated to change, although some independent schools are indeed private businesses.

There is the other point to make that for UK based people, who send their children to independent schools, they are also paying for schooling twice, once through their taxes for state schooling, for a place that is not used.

Equal education is not a basic human right - only a decent education is. Choice is also a basic human right; everyone has the right to try and improve on the basics. Unless, of course, you live in a society where you have NO choice. Where someone else decides what you do, where someone else determines your every move. Is that really preferable?