Shout and scream or Coffee and Tea??

[leightonupman]

Hi there all

I could use your worldly wisdom re my 12 year old little girl.

She’s just started secondary school and has landed in the lowest band.

She’s getting on ok but I’m unhappy about her staying there. The longer she stays there the more comfortable she’s becoming, and the harder I can see it will be to get her to move up a band. Being a Dad I’m terrified she’ll end up in a sht job - hey you gotta think long term right? To my mind we need to intervene now in year 7 whilst she’s doing Key Stage 3, so she’s got a fighting chance of getting some decent GCSEs post KS4.

We are providing a maths tutor to help her once a week, Maths being her weakest area. We are also giving her homework in the absence of homework coming from the school. They don’t seem to give it much at the moment, which is annoying the hell out of me.

Long and short is I am having real trouble putting faith in the school to help her improve - my gut feeling is that they are happy for her to just amble along as she is instead of making extra effort to help her improve and move up, which I can’t accept. I’m not convinced that moving up a band is entirely based on merit or hard results. I think they sometimes move a kid just to move a problem from one place to another. This is my little girl’s future right?

All this angst is taking its toll on me and my wife. My girl is out of earshot when we’re rowing about it. It’s a cause of arguments at home with my wife. I’ve had the initial meeting with the head of KS which didn’t fill me with confidence. Early on in primary school I pressed for extra help but got told to back off and let them do their job, which I accepted at the time. But guess what? My girl didn’t improve and ends up in the lower band in secondary. This time I’m determined not to make the same mistake. I’m taking full control to make sure she’s improving, in loads of time before GCSEs.

We can only do so much at home with the tutor and homework we give her but the kid has to have a life as well right?

When we’ve spoken to her a few times about moving up, she’s not a fan of change and so the move is daunting, but I think she would be glad really - a move up is an affirming thing right?

I’m now treating her lack of progress like a complaint basically. I’m pulling together whatever data I can and getting ready to hurl it at the school and the board in the (likely) event she still hasn’t improved by end of the second term. I’m worried they will try to b sht us again and still do nothing to help.

Should I back off? If so how much? Leave her to it? Or do I go full out and put in a formal complaint that the school isn’t doing enough to help her improve . Where is the middle line? And do I need to stop worrying so much about her future and let things be what will be? And what’s the right approach with the school? A series of calm measured discussions over the coming months to work out what needs to change (not working so far btw), or do I go old school and give the teachers a boll**cking? Sadly this approach seems to have worked for at least one parent I know. Sometimes in big businesses when complaining as a consumer, he who shouts loudest gets heard, and it’s worked for me before, but is this the right approach now?? I can't see an approach to take with teachers that will give me the outcomes we want? What approach works best with teachers to get results from them? Sounds cold I know but please cut me some slack - I'm a stupid bloke. It's the reason I'm asking you guys

I know these teachers are under incredible strain as it is and I am the last one to make someone’s life worse. But again this is my kid’s future. Bottom line is we need my girl to be ready to do well when she gets to KS4 and beyond.

And if there’s any doubt here, we both love this little girl beyond measure - she’s the centre of our lives and just want to do right by her and I will do whatever it takes.

Help me sensible ones, could really use some different perspectives and strategies etc.

I’m not sure your talk of giving teachers a rollocking etc is goi g to sit well in this board.

I think as a parent that you would be best keeping up with the tutor. Involving your dd in stimulating out of school clubs or activities and arranging a calm positive meeting with her teachers/head of year would be the best way to go.

Year 7 is a huge change for a child and the first term is really about settling in. If she is settling well then with a calm positive approach to her learning may now get all the boost she needs.

Just to be clear, I am expecting to see that the school has a clear plan of how it’s going to improve her ability at school for the coming two terms

School cannot* improve her ability- that is inate.
Teachers are on performance-related pay linked to pupil progress. Believe me, they are interested in helping your child progress.
Be aware that some schools send home grades that are "will get at end of course" grades, not working at grades... so she could be a 3 this term, a 3 next term, and a 3 in summer. This doesn't mean she isn't making progress! It means she's learning and acquiring skills and knowledge exactly as she should be to achieve that grade at the end of the course.
Some schools use working at grades, in which case, you can clearly see changes term-on-term.
Other schools send home no grades at all.... primarily because it leads to the poorly informed ranting seen in your OP.

Also be aware that rates of progress vary hugely according to children's ability and capacity to learn. A lower prior attainers just cannot learn and progress at the same rate as a higher prior attainer (unless the reason for low prior attainment was being brand new to English, for example).
If a child is still reading slowly, having to.decode every sentence, then of course they cannot move forward in their learning at the speed of those children that 'read' in paragraphs (as soon as they glance at a page it's in their head).

I home ed but if I sent my kids to school, I wouldn’t rely on just what they do at school/homework. A small amount 5-6 days per week (including holidays but excluding special days like birthdays etc) is far better than large quantities on a few days.

For maths - firstly ensure she can do basic arithmetic well and accurately (basically year 6 sats stuff). Make sure she understands place value and columns, fractions etc (just look up year 6 national curriculum). Then go for speed. Up to 12 times tables should be done in seconds. You don’t have to be the fastest, but it makes gcse maths a lot easier if you can do things quickly. Times tables can be tested in the car as can mental arithmetic. You can set your own sums or find a website to do it. But sit with your daughter when she is doing it (because then she doesn’t feel like she is working when no one else is). If she gets something wrong, explain it gently. Be sensitive - if she is very tired, give her a break and cut it short (when my 4 year old is tired I say that if he concentrates and does it well, he only needs to do 3 sums).

I use this range of books too:
Maths Plus Word Problems 6: Pupil Book www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0435208675/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_YUXnCbCB76P0F?tag=mumsnetforum-21

If you do this with her and help her with homework, you will be able to see what progress she is making yourself. Maths is satisfying because with practice the vast majority of people can improve. Make sure you encourage her too.

And don’t make her feel bad if she doesn’t know something she ‘should’. Just gently explain it and continue practicing. Be aware that they teach different methods in different places, so adapt your explanations to what she understands (can ask the maths tutor or internet if there are other ways of showing her the concept).

Kahn Academy free and good for many things as PP mentioned.

Mathfactor currently have a 14-day free trial. There are other on-line maths programs - such as conquermaths but they haven't suited my DC so best for them at secondary we've found so far is IXL it doesn't teach though but does mean they get daily practise and we have the skills to help when they get stuck. School uses Mymaths for homework and that seems good.

Dragon box - only used for algebra one but it's good it makes it a game which the children then enjoy doing.

English is harder to suggest for.

IXL English – Latin/Greek bits were okay other stuff no so much. Red hot roots also useful but our main problems are spelling related so understanding what common pre fixes and suffixes mean helps with that.

Read Threory is free and might be worth a look

Sounds like you’re in a better position with reading than us – in that she’ll still read with you. I had to turn to audio books – The book people sometime have cheaper cd – got a few classics that way – also tv adaptations and films.

Overly Sarcastic productions were a chance find – they been very useful in sparking interest – they’ve done over views of Shakespeare plays and other classics – the trope talks have taken DD1 into other You Tubers who analyse books and texts and sparked her to start trying to write her own stuff – also lead to other history folks like Extra History.

Back ground in the home we have The Weekly Junior, Radio 4 and their pod casts – In our Times, More or Less, great Lives, Infinite Monkey Cage – lots of TV documentaries - adult one as well as things like Horrible Histories and the Science of Stupid – do days out to science and historical places – get books on subjects they are doing and record programs that might be relevant.

We don’t get much feedback in secondary – DD1 is year 9 and about to decide GCSE options and I’ve realised I’ve never spoken to her subject teachers just her form tutor – the reports three a year are one table three columns – one word for behaviour, one grade for effort, and one for level –the national level in wales and on top a red light system – it’s sometimes confusing when you have a good level and a red light though they’ve been good at responding via e-mail there’s not always the details wanted.

On sets - my older two got into top maths sets ( we credit math factor done during primary with a lot of that) but for DD1 it did work against her in year 7.

They’re good at maths because they've worked at it slowly and steadily – more like me than DH who just gets maths and always has. DD1 has most of year 7 without a qualified maths teacher and when they finally got one near end of year they rushed through the new concepts on assumption that as the kids were good at maths concepts would be picked up quickly.

DD1 at least asked us for help – so we knew there were issues – that why we looked at on-line maths sites for secondary. It’s why we do IXL, though I don't think it's great, so at least we get a heads up if there are problem areas.

Can I just say thanks to all - great to see this thread continuing.
I can’t speak to all these posts but clearly it’s an engaging subject. Thanks to everyone for taking time out to contribute. Some great ideas and resources coming out here which suggests this was a worthwhile endeavour not just for us I hope!

Just to re-set and update the scene here...

Initially I was getting frustrated at the lack of visibility from the school about how my girl was doing. I wanted to see her improve and not just remain at a constant level. She’s in the bottom set which to my mind at the time of opening this thread felt like she was being forgotten about frankly especially as again, I could not see a plan coming out of school as to how they were going to help her. I didn’t (and still don’t) accept that no more can be done to help other than the standard teaching plan.

Anyway, time has moved in since then and my view has changed substantially. I do accept that she’s in the lower band, and that a band change is not the right way to go (unless she improves). I chose that goal to give us some direction to help her improve. I do take the point that being in the lower band is appropriate for her current learning ability and the set is the best place for her. I have said I now think think that we need to concentrate on the work she is being given in the band and getting her better at that, using perhaps those in class scores as a measure (and perhaps approach the band thing again). But long term, like most parents I want to be confident we did all we could to enable her to fulfil her potential later on. And to do that, one of the key influences on her future will be how the school and teachers helped her at the beginning. So I need to have productive conversations in the spirit of a partnership (not shouting and screaming for the record - in my ignorance I put forward this idea because I’d heard someone else had done it - actually not sure if it had the desired effect but after listening here I suspect not, so I won’t be taking that approach!) with school early on and throughout to ensure that she is getting that support.

We’re now talking about the possible scenario of what if she doesn’t improve or even appears to be slipping. It’s worse case. I’ve put forward a fairly simple idea that if somethings not working, you seek out the causes, come up with some alternative ideas and try again - in principle. This doesn’t seem to sit right with some, so I’m now asking for suggestions as to how else I handle said scenario. I’ve seen a few posters have related their experiences in this regard which is enormously helpful so thank you. I’d welcome anyone else’s experiences of how they helped their kid if they found themselves in such a situation. I’m referring to how they worked with the school, rather than the home support they likely gave (which we are already doing). That said I’m intrigued by the home schoolers contributions here - some great ideas for how we can better help at home, so thank you (esp. Namenic)

No probs! Board games can also be a great creative way of learning. Year 7 is quite a cool age in that respect. Look at board game geek forum online and then at YouTube videos (eg dice tower by Tom vasel) before purchasing as they can be quite expensive.

My kids are too young for this but I like:

1. Pandemic (co-op board game where people help get rid of disease outbreaks in different countries). Can open discussions about flu, infectious diseases, geography (has a map with cities). Promotes logical thinking.

1. Carcasonne - there is strategy in trade-offs you make (eg high risk for big reward or certain but low amounts of points). Some mental maths when counting points.

1. Articulate (there is a kids version too). Needs min 4 players but you could just use the cards and play with your daughter - she describes words on the cards (without saying the word or ‘sounds like’/‘begins with’). Great for vocabulary/general knowledge.

Monsters in the elevator (Kickstarter) is good for mental maths (though I haven’t had much time to actually play)

Also puzzle games like rush hour (on amazon) or turing tumble (Kickstarter - haven’t tried this but looks cool) promote logical thinking.

I think the issue is what you see as an 'improvement'.

I fear in your opinion your DD will only improve or progress if she moves out of the bottom set. You need to accept the possibility that academically she just may not be capable of that. You will have a better impression of this once you have spoken to the teachers at parents evening.

However, for your DDs sake, you need to make sure that if she remains in the bottom set, you are not giving the impression that she has 'failed' - that will do nothing for her confidence.

Assuming she is doing all that she is asked of her by the school, and is trying her best, then she has not failed. Her progress is learning a year's worth of new information, and hopefully being able to get the best results for her in tests and end of year exams.

I’m referring to how they worked with the school
We've tended to get quite general advice back.

We did work in tandem with one of her form tutors to get DD1 screened for Dyslexia - the on-line screening test showed few issues with memory which led to general advice about revision though SENCO said it wasn't worth perusing further but when we asked for specific advice for the issues that lead to testing we got nothing back.

Table Top was good for us to find interesting board games as a family.

Bananagrams was a big thing at my DC's selective independent. They all did a ten minute session at the end of each day and there was also lunchtime club. I once went to the school at playtime to drop something off and there was a group of children playing it on the floor in the playground.

Its a fun game - cheap and well worth buying. We keep our set out on the kitchen table so that we can always pick it up and play when there is a spare 5-10 minutes.

Namenic thanks again - great resources from you delivered and received.

Seeline
Very fair point in terms of what I think improvement is. I had previously set a goal to see her move up to the next band because I thought that being in the new band would be decent evidence that my girl had improved to the point where that event had taken place. After this thread and as I’ve said previous I don’t now think it is the right goal. I do think that helping her achieve better and better scores in her current band is the right goal however. So my question still stands really. What else other than keeping her a status quo (which I get from your post is an improvement in and of itself, so thank you), can be done at school to influence this aspiration? What is reasonable to ask them to do?

Big kite flying thanks - understood. General reports aren’t useful enough I think so I get your point. Table top - will check it out thanks.

Cloudtree - Bananagrams ok got it, will check it out thanks

Hi all thanks for your posts. Looks like it’s gone quiet now so I think we’ve probably exhausted this one. I’ve a much better approach than my initial post to proceed with and that’s down to you guys taking time out to have this discussion. It’s been a tough thing to listen to but be assured I’ve taken what’s been said to heart and I hope that comes across. I’m going to bow out of the debate at this point to round up and apply all this good stuff so we can move forward. Thanks again.

Do remember that brains and academia aren't everything, but opportunities are. My builder got one GCSE at grade C (unsure what it was) and he is hugely successful, respected and creates wonderful things. He is thoughtful, kind, hardworking, a great conversationalist, funny. He'd great. (I am, incidentally happily married 😂)

He also happens to be a lot richer than me. His daughters are lovely.

There's a niche for everyone and a string of GCSE grades 7-9 might not be it for your lovely girl, and so what? School is just a stepping stone for what's next in her wonderful life.

But please read. Ask the teachers about the school library and have a nose. Are the books modern? Recently published? Lots of choice? My school library is excellent, given the education budgets.

A good teacher comes and goes. A parent doesn't. Well done for being ambitious for your daughter and taking the flack above. It's good advice.

Tell your daughter that you love her and are proud of her.

Fenny Bridges

Thanks very much, that’s appreciated and it’s really reassuring to hear this tbh. It’s easy to get in a knot about how your kid or kids are doing. I think your sense of perspective serves you well! It’s actually something of a relief to let my original plan go and construct a better one!😀

Don’t get me wrong; how’s she’s doing in school is always going to be important to us. This thread has been great working out from all the info that’s out there, how to best progress.

As for reading - right with you (and others here) on that one. Looking at audiobooks someone suggested also - still collating all these great ideas.

Your builder sounds like he’s got some great qualities there - don’t lose his number! 😂

Waywardfruit - done and done! Thanks for the nudge. 👍😉