Shout and scream or Coffee and Tea??

[leightonupman]

Hi there all

I could use your worldly wisdom re my 12 year old little girl.

She’s just started secondary school and has landed in the lowest band.

She’s getting on ok but I’m unhappy about her staying there. The longer she stays there the more comfortable she’s becoming, and the harder I can see it will be to get her to move up a band. Being a Dad I’m terrified she’ll end up in a sht job - hey you gotta think long term right? To my mind we need to intervene now in year 7 whilst she’s doing Key Stage 3, so she’s got a fighting chance of getting some decent GCSEs post KS4.

We are providing a maths tutor to help her once a week, Maths being her weakest area. We are also giving her homework in the absence of homework coming from the school. They don’t seem to give it much at the moment, which is annoying the hell out of me.

Long and short is I am having real trouble putting faith in the school to help her improve - my gut feeling is that they are happy for her to just amble along as she is instead of making extra effort to help her improve and move up, which I can’t accept. I’m not convinced that moving up a band is entirely based on merit or hard results. I think they sometimes move a kid just to move a problem from one place to another. This is my little girl’s future right?

All this angst is taking its toll on me and my wife. My girl is out of earshot when we’re rowing about it. It’s a cause of arguments at home with my wife. I’ve had the initial meeting with the head of KS which didn’t fill me with confidence. Early on in primary school I pressed for extra help but got told to back off and let them do their job, which I accepted at the time. But guess what? My girl didn’t improve and ends up in the lower band in secondary. This time I’m determined not to make the same mistake. I’m taking full control to make sure she’s improving, in loads of time before GCSEs.

We can only do so much at home with the tutor and homework we give her but the kid has to have a life as well right?

When we’ve spoken to her a few times about moving up, she’s not a fan of change and so the move is daunting, but I think she would be glad really - a move up is an affirming thing right?

I’m now treating her lack of progress like a complaint basically. I’m pulling together whatever data I can and getting ready to hurl it at the school and the board in the (likely) event she still hasn’t improved by end of the second term. I’m worried they will try to b sht us again and still do nothing to help.

Should I back off? If so how much? Leave her to it? Or do I go full out and put in a formal complaint that the school isn’t doing enough to help her improve . Where is the middle line? And do I need to stop worrying so much about her future and let things be what will be? And what’s the right approach with the school? A series of calm measured discussions over the coming months to work out what needs to change (not working so far btw), or do I go old school and give the teachers a boll**cking? Sadly this approach seems to have worked for at least one parent I know. Sometimes in big businesses when complaining as a consumer, he who shouts loudest gets heard, and it’s worked for me before, but is this the right approach now?? I can't see an approach to take with teachers that will give me the outcomes we want? What approach works best with teachers to get results from them? Sounds cold I know but please cut me some slack - I'm a stupid bloke. It's the reason I'm asking you guys

I know these teachers are under incredible strain as it is and I am the last one to make someone’s life worse. But again this is my kid’s future. Bottom line is we need my girl to be ready to do well when she gets to KS4 and beyond.

And if there’s any doubt here, we both love this little girl beyond measure - she’s the centre of our lives and just want to do right by her and I will do whatever it takes.

Help me sensible ones, could really use some different perspectives and strategies etc.

Behaviour issues can be an issue and that would be an issue for school to manage effectively. They have a responsibility to help all students learn.

Re the 4 data drops, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. If the teacher can’t demonstrate how the child is performing at least week to week, then how can they find key their delivery of their material to the kids?
Progress and data drops are different things.

I can tell you the strengths and weaknesses of every child I teach and tell you what I'm doing to help thrm improve. That doesn't translate to a data drop for parents.

Anyone expecting to see week to week improvements in terms of grades doesn't understand how learning works. E.g. I might be working on sentence variation one week and next week look at context of poems. Both involve making progress, neither would be enough to move a child up a grade.
Parents/senior leaders wanting everything micromanage and every ounce of learning quantified do teachers and students a huge disservice.

She's only been there a term, some children take longer to settle into a new school than others. Try not to get annoyed about her lack of progress, and please don't let it be a source of friction at home. She will definitely pick up on that, even if you don't argue in front of her. There's no point in getting angry with her teachers either.

Anyway, some kids do plateau for a year, mine did.

One set of data per term is sort of plenty. The teachers need time to teach in-between assessing!

I have only had limited success with asking for exercise books to come home occasionally (I tend to stick a post-it inside DD's planner).
I have had more success with occasionally emailing specific teachers with specific questions (we have a good 'contact teacher' system).

Some fun maths stuff which isn't a workbook:

www.rigb.org/christmas-lectures/watch?video-topics=Maths&video-lecturer=&video-year=&video-type=series&search_text=&p=1

Lots of other topics there, as well. The RI used to run family days quite regularly as well. (No help if you are nowhere near London, of course).

• seems they still do:

www.rigb.org/families/family-fun-days

My three attended a very very poor secondary in a remote location. Since dh and I had good jobs there moving wasn’t feasible. Instead we focused on sports, various trips and experiences and the best colleges possible.
Both colleges attended by my boys, tested and topped up their secondary studies.
My youngest attended a full time 13 month in-depth program that in that timeframe redid grades 9-12. Those grades were subsequently used for further education.
I had never heard of such programs. Hidden gems (although located in Canada), I’d be researching similar options in the UK just in case.

Minimum97

Thanks. Actually this thread has helped enormously and I think going forward the arguments are likely to settle. The disagreement was a difference of opinion in how to handle the school and teachers. Because their is such a lack of visibility of her performance to my mind, I can’t tell if she is staying in steady progress, or improving or declining. I was getting frustrated and ready to go to war over it, but my wife said the opposite and actually agreed with the calm measured approach this thread has generally suggested as best. Like you I will find it difficult to keep a lid on it whilst there is so much at stake, but I want a result here so I will do whatever works. And staying calm and measured seems to be the way to go. Concrete steps! I absolutely will do - it’s a good point. I don’t want future parent evenings to be a monologue where the teacher just tells us quickly how she’s doing and that’s that. Need to know what their plan is going forward. This thread is my research in fact. I think I had to reach out here and get different perspectives because I don’t trust my own alone, even if it is well meaning and reasonable practical. In terms of the school, I did my research before we got here and yes they are a good school. They’re not perfect of course - what school is, but I’m happy that she is here. Like I said in an earlier post she’s settled in well. I definitely want to hold the line and persevere with them.

Knitwit101

The Week Junior and First News - I will definitely check these out, thank you.

W00t

Point well taken about moving up too soon. Kumon no good? Ok I’ll approach with caution then. I’ll check out Khan Academy thanks. It’s a bog standard comp as far as I know and suffice to say her marks were such that she was placed into the lower set.
I get the point that learning is hard work, but after having been through this post I’m more convinced that I need to shift the balance towards implementing some clubs and activities to help her confidence. Might be some sport involved. Actually we cleared her schedule to get the tutor installed - it’s expensive so now we know how much and where we are we can budget for some clubs/sports etc.
Fair point about the phone, it takes up more of her time than I would like but you try prying it out of her hands! Working on it!

sounds good.
imo it is all about How you can help, ask the school, how can you help? which websites are useful.
show involvement.
but remember fun
there is bbc bitesize

Definitely one data drop a term is fine. ‘weighing the pig does not make it any fatter’. Your child needs time to learn new skills.

I have heard great things about this magazine
www.aquila.co.uk

Another tip. Make sure her phone is not in her bedroom overnight or she will be on it through the night. She needs a good nights sleep to learn well.

Parents Evening: You have to plan to get the most out of your 5 minutes. My view is 3 points/questions at most per subject.
e.g.

1. DD tells me she finds it hard to concentrate due to some of the behaviour of the boys.
2. What is her next target
3. How can I best support at home if we wanted to do a bit extra

Otherwise you risk spending the 5 minutes like this:

Teacher to your DD: 'How do you think you are getting on?'
DD: Silence. Then eventually mumbles 'OK I suppose'
Teacher: Well, you have made a good start. We have been covering maths core basics this term and in her recent test she did fine. We use a spiral model which is why some work will appear to be repeated ….

Again, id like to say it's refreshing to see an Op willing to take on board suggestions.

Loads of good suggestions here. I'm of the view that it can be good to make contact with school and communicate about concerns, as long as you are careful not to do it too much. It's always best to approach with a query and seeking advice rather than a complaint, especially when you're not in receipt of full information.

The issue here partly seems to me that you simply don't really know what your DD is capable of and how she can be stretched further. So I would ask. I wouldn't start from the point of school is failing and she is in the wrong set, because actually you don't know this. What you want to know is what they think her ability level and potential are (and what evidence there is of that) and if she is meeting her potential at the moment - is she working hard and what are the school doing to push her to achieve her potential? And you can ask what you can do and what more can the school do. And I'd look to make a plan in collaboration with them so you're going in the same direction and you know what they're doing and they know what you're doing, including the tutor. If you approach it from an angle of a fact finding mission and having the goal of making a plan not a complaint you should find you can work with them.

I'd probably email the Head of Year, and copy in the maths teacher and form teacher and probably Head of Maths too, asking if you can come in for a chat to discuss her progress in maths. You can lay out in the email the things you're interested to chat about and make clear you want to work with them to achieve the best for your DD. At any meeting, ask if they can confirm what has been agreed and ask too if you can have an update in perhaps a terms time. Al of this will involve time and effort from the teachers, but I think it's a reasonable request and if you approach it in the right way, it could make her time at school more productive - she will be more on the radar of the teachers and you will know more about her ability, her work ethic and what is going on and feel steps are being made to move forward.

Best of luck in finding out more what is going on and developing that plants move forward.

OP it's great to see how you're taking on board all these ideas from this thread. Really refreshing and I'm sure your daughter will feel the benefits.

I just wanted to share about one young lady I taught for science for three years. She was always in bottom but one set as she was very anxious about tests and underperformed despite having lots of TLC and access arrangements etc. She was a very nervous girl anyway. However when relaxed she clearly had the same ability as a middle set child, but if we'd put her in that class she'd have felt so overwhelmed, and had maybe 10 more students in the class, she'd have got lost. Staying with me in the lower set (who I adored and chose to keep each year rather than re-timetabling them onto someone else, even though they drove me mad at times) meant I had time to work with her, she lost some of her anxieties and started to believe in her own ability. It helped that she, being brighter than a lot of the others, picked stuff up a bit quicker so had extra time to practice-big fish in a small pond, I guess. In the end she got a C in her GCSE and outperformed kids two sets higher than her. So being in a lower group isn't always a negative thing. This girl had supportive parents like yourself and we would exchange emails or phone calls maybe once a month to keep up and so I could tell them what topics were coming up next, so there is a lot to be said for the collaborative/softly softly approach to building a partnership with the school as you'll find staff will be happy to keep in touch with you.

Leeds2
Thanks. Yep will do the library soon and definitely look up your suggestions. Days trips does sound good also. We did do these things but less so lately. I will look to refresh this.

Re books to read, well I know one of her favourites was Julian Clary’s “The Bolds” series, about Hyenas living in Teddington. She loves humour and funny stuff. And animals of course. She loved all the “Diaries of a Wimpy Kid” but hated the Harry Potter series (my wife and I loved them!) Oh and she loved all of David Walliams stuff.

Any suggestions along these lines welcome.

SenoraSurf

Thanks, ok I think I follow. I am conscious of not overwhelming her after school, but your point is duly noted. Re complaining nearer GCSEs - that is a useful insight. I get it thanks.

Maisypops
Re misbehaviour I have asked my girl if she feels distracted and she says not, so I’m going with it at the minute.

Re micromanaging .. this is an interesting point. If the school were more transparent about my girls progress then I perhaps wouldn’t feel the need to have to try to work it out myself. I don’t see how my asking for a decent view of my kid’s progress is doing anyone a disservice. In fact, no visibility of what the plan is or the progress is where the disservice lies I think. Again let’s agree to disagree. I don’t want to be in a position where the school is piling on pressure on my kid in three or four years time because they didn’t do enough earlier to make her ready for KS4 and GCSEs. Without any evidence to show they know how they are going to get her ready, it makes me very nervous. Without data how do you know if things are improving? My experience says you don’t.

Wayward fruit - cheers understood. I get that.

Teentimestwo - I will look for more contacts in the subjects of interest - thanks for the suggestion.

Marching frogs - cheers got it - will check it out.

Giftsonthebrain - that’s an intriguing idea, who knew they existed! Anyhow thanks I need to stick with the school for now but I will keep it in mind.

HoraceCope - good point well made and I’ll do my best to keep things balanced here thanks

Jacks house -

Sorry I have to agree to disagree - need more visibility. I don’t say in them selves make a difference but they do inform better when to make changes, anticipate trends etc.
Aquila looks great - will check this out.
Re phone - understood, trying to make sure she hasn’t got it going to bed. Agree re good nights sleep thanks!

TeenTimesTwo

Good tips for parents evening and 100% taken. Do I need to take my kid? I’d rather have a conversation without interruptions if you get my drift!?!

ChocolateWombat

I’m past the complaint stage for now, focussing more in partnership. All good points here and well taken on board thanks.

Heyha

This is an encouraging story to be honest. I want that greater level of contact with the teachers so I’m hoping to come away with a few more email addresses after parents evening. Perhaps have a permanently open line of communication will somehow improve the lack of visibility. It’s a really great point thanks.

I don’t want to be in a position where the school is piling on pressure on my kid in three or four years time because they didn’t do enough earlier to make her ready for KS4 and GCSEs
Why would you think that's the case?
Did she reach National Standard?(100)

W00t sorry am being dim - when you say National Standard can you elaborate?

Did she score 100 or above in the KS2 Reading and Maths tests?

Just so you know... my dc went all the way through her entire secondary years with us knowing almost nothing about how she was doing, where she was ability-wise or compared with her peers, or whether she was improving faster or slower than she should be, or indeed, what they were basing it on.

We found it incredibly frustrating.

All you get told is that they are above/below/on target, but nobody can ever tell you what they mean by that. It's not the teachers, it's the system. Whether it was her own personal target, the general one for the whole cohort, or just the level they were expecting her to be at by the end of the year, I never knew.

You won't get continuous feedback, you'll be lucky for termly. We got two parents' evenings a year. One in October when it would be the form teacher, who might not even teach them for any of their subjects, and the other was around the end of June. By which time you are practically at the end of the year anyway, so any information that would have been useful earlier in the year about progress or lack of it, is a bit too late to be of any use.

Without data how do you know if things are improving? My experience says you don’t.
And with all due respect, that's probably because you aren't a teacher so don't understand how teachers do their job, which isn't a criticism (it's normal for people not to know the details of other people's jobs), but it's also why it's probably best to realise that what you want isn't necessarily what would be the best teaching decision.

Ways we check progress:
By working with the student.
By asking targeted questions
By hearing them articulate answers.
By seeing their work get better on specific skills.
By them generating more thoughtful responses.
By listening to the answers they give in class.
By observing and listening to group work.
By seeing their scores on quizzes.
And obviously formal assessment

There are loads of ways to track pupil progress that doesn't involve trying to create artificially tight levels. Formative assessment as I've mentioned above is the day to day bread and butter element of teaching.

Asking for your child's strengths and weaknesses and an overview of how they are getting on isn't doing anyone a disservice. In fact, as I've said it's a totally reasonable thing to call up and ask about.

Expecting lots of data drops weeks apart does do staff and students a disservice for many reasons:
Firstly, because learning doesn't happen in neat linear chunks.
Secondly. It's demotivating for students to always be a level X even though they have been looking at different skills and to get to a higher level means upgrading skills in lots of areas across lota of topics
Thirdly, more often than not parents don't really get levels and data so they want to see every few weeks level 1 2 3 4 5 etc and claim lack of progress if they get level 4 more than once. The reality is that theyve been working at a level 4 consistently across a range of topics so the progress is mastering a new topic to that level.
Finally, it places an undue pressure on staff to summatively assess which means getting students to do graded assessments so often that actual learning is compromised as there's no time to actually teach the curriculum or get the assessments marked.

Absolutely have a chat with school about her overall progress, but be cautious before deciding thay things aren't right without relevant knowledge.

At secondary the norm at most schools is for your child to attend too. It is good for the teacher to have a visual prompt as to which child they are talking about, and at secondary age they should be taking more ownership about their education too.
It has generally been really positive as the teachers praise DD in front of me which is good for her motivation/esteem. I agree it can sometimes be harder to have frank conversations.
We are about to have y9 evening and choose options. I want to ask 'do you expect her to pass this if she selects it' but may have to be a bit more subtle.

I do try to see the SENCO / pastoral without my DD - usually by sending her and DH home early. Sometimes we have a long gap before the last appointment and DD and DH leave then and I do the last appt on my own.

I think you need to step back a little. Secondary school is a massive adjustment. Don't introduce any more pressure than she's already under or she will lose confidence and slip back. Help her to complete homework and tasks as best she can, get the basics in place. Encourage indepence and just reassure her lots. Enjoy learning with her if it's a project you can discover together. Kumon etc is no match for enthusiastic loving parental support, if you can carve out the time for it.

Did she score 100 or more in the ks3 sats?
Does she know her times tables and her number bonds?
Can she read fluently and with expression and understanding?

Maisypops

How often do you independently improve how you teach each individual student may I ask? I presume your measures will inform this improvement? Do you proactively ask whether or not each kid is learning at least to an acceptable standard for the band and if they’re not, are you changing and correcting what you are doing until they are performing correctly?

This isn’t a teaching decision I’m talking about. I want confidence from my kid’s teachers that they are clear about how she is performing today and where she’s not up to standard, that they are taking proactive steps to change how they are teaching her so she is. I didn’t have this confidence in primary, and I have to have it this time in secondary or I’m not doing my job as a parent.

I hope that by talking to knowledgeable people like yourself I can get an insight into what’s happening so I turn up at parents evening well informed and asking sensible questions.

I am ignorant in this area and I admit it so your posts are a real help.

Teentimestwo cheers I'd better make it two questions then - she's a parrot when she starts

MargotsFlouncyBlouse thanks for the input - after having learned so much from this thread I think I recognise the need for a better balanced week to engage in activities to build her confidence from different angles, so you your points are well made and taken.

From my experience of setting, children are nowadays 'ranked' like their GCSE grades will be before grade boundaries are decided. The sad fact is, if other children have performed better in their SATS and assessments, they deserve to be higher up and she doesn't. Places are limited; higher sets are not for everyone....

Firstly, the higher sets might be full.
Secondly, higher sets are likely to be bigger. A smaller lower set in my mind is favourable to a huge higher band set.
Thirdly, some children develop their intellectual ability as they grow. If she's motivated who's to say she won't achieve at GCSE? Bottom sets when you're in Y7 mean little. She's 12 with more than four years to master studying.
Lastly, best thing you can do - and I'm a secondary English teacher with 18 years of experience: read, read and read more. To her, with her, of fiction, of non fiction. Then talk about it. Her GCSE papers will have reading ages of 15-16 years and some children's reading ages are woefully low in all year groups I teach. You want her reading age to be as close as possible to her chronological age. If she can access a curriculum because she can read it, AND comprehend what she is reading, then her intellectual ability, whatever it is, will shine through.

I am a mother. I will do homework like building mountains because my sons like it. But we miss boring homework regularly because they're at Cubs and gymnastics and martial arts. Boring homework is of little value to them and I can't see it's marked, either. What we NEVER miss (unless it's Christmas Day) is reading. Encourage a love for reading and everything will follow. Minimum I'd suggest four times a week.

Also set an example. Only 21% of fathers read to their children. Fact I read recently in a book, 'Don't call it Literacy'.