Shout and scream or Coffee and Tea??

[leightonupman]

Hi there all

I could use your worldly wisdom re my 12 year old little girl.

She’s just started secondary school and has landed in the lowest band.

She’s getting on ok but I’m unhappy about her staying there. The longer she stays there the more comfortable she’s becoming, and the harder I can see it will be to get her to move up a band. Being a Dad I’m terrified she’ll end up in a sht job - hey you gotta think long term right? To my mind we need to intervene now in year 7 whilst she’s doing Key Stage 3, so she’s got a fighting chance of getting some decent GCSEs post KS4.

We are providing a maths tutor to help her once a week, Maths being her weakest area. We are also giving her homework in the absence of homework coming from the school. They don’t seem to give it much at the moment, which is annoying the hell out of me.

Long and short is I am having real trouble putting faith in the school to help her improve - my gut feeling is that they are happy for her to just amble along as she is instead of making extra effort to help her improve and move up, which I can’t accept. I’m not convinced that moving up a band is entirely based on merit or hard results. I think they sometimes move a kid just to move a problem from one place to another. This is my little girl’s future right?

All this angst is taking its toll on me and my wife. My girl is out of earshot when we’re rowing about it. It’s a cause of arguments at home with my wife. I’ve had the initial meeting with the head of KS which didn’t fill me with confidence. Early on in primary school I pressed for extra help but got told to back off and let them do their job, which I accepted at the time. But guess what? My girl didn’t improve and ends up in the lower band in secondary. This time I’m determined not to make the same mistake. I’m taking full control to make sure she’s improving, in loads of time before GCSEs.

We can only do so much at home with the tutor and homework we give her but the kid has to have a life as well right?

When we’ve spoken to her a few times about moving up, she’s not a fan of change and so the move is daunting, but I think she would be glad really - a move up is an affirming thing right?

I’m now treating her lack of progress like a complaint basically. I’m pulling together whatever data I can and getting ready to hurl it at the school and the board in the (likely) event she still hasn’t improved by end of the second term. I’m worried they will try to b sht us again and still do nothing to help.

Should I back off? If so how much? Leave her to it? Or do I go full out and put in a formal complaint that the school isn’t doing enough to help her improve . Where is the middle line? And do I need to stop worrying so much about her future and let things be what will be? And what’s the right approach with the school? A series of calm measured discussions over the coming months to work out what needs to change (not working so far btw), or do I go old school and give the teachers a boll**cking? Sadly this approach seems to have worked for at least one parent I know. Sometimes in big businesses when complaining as a consumer, he who shouts loudest gets heard, and it’s worked for me before, but is this the right approach now?? I can't see an approach to take with teachers that will give me the outcomes we want? What approach works best with teachers to get results from them? Sounds cold I know but please cut me some slack - I'm a stupid bloke. It's the reason I'm asking you guys

I know these teachers are under incredible strain as it is and I am the last one to make someone’s life worse. But again this is my kid’s future. Bottom line is we need my girl to be ready to do well when she gets to KS4 and beyond.

And if there’s any doubt here, we both love this little girl beyond measure - she’s the centre of our lives and just want to do right by her and I will do whatever it takes.

Help me sensible ones, could really use some different perspectives and strategies etc.

Aww thanks so much for that last post, really appreciate the positives you are alluding to. I wish you well.

Read with her? I still read with my 11 and 12 yr olds most evenings. Find a novel that might interest you both and read it to her before bed. It will feel weird at first but you will both come to really enjoy it. You can talk about the book together, read more complicated things she might not read by herself.

On the subject of reading - I would love to return to the days when I would sit in her room and read to her for ten minutes a night. But if she doesn't want it then what can I do? What am I trying to achieve with it? Is it to improve her reading ability (and so have her read it out), or to improve listening (to me read), or just reading for enjoyment somehow? I know that improving reading skills is really important to everything else she's doing for sure, but tips on how to engage her more in this area I guess is what I need?

Like the sound of your plan op. Best of luck.

Thanks much

How about apps? If you have a phone or tablet? I do lumosity and peak which are fun brain training ones all with different games each day and both free

Good tip re apps thanks - I will definitely try that out with her! It's playing with her phone at the end of the day right?

To practise maths what about cooking - weighing out ingredients, scaling recipes up or down, shopping for ingredients and working out the change etc.
English - instead of reading to her you could both read the same book and then discuss it together. If it's a book with a film adaptation you could then watch it together and compare it to the book. Go to the theatre? Also word games like Scrabble, Taboo, Articulate etc.

Without knowing her actual ability, it's difficult to know where to pitch advice. I assume she can read reasonably well? Helping her comprehension, being able to infer things from the text etc are useful skills.
How about picking a book and reading it at the same time so that you can both talk about the plot, characters etc.
Another option my DD used to enjoy was reading a book together - I read a chapter at bed time, then she would carry on reading until lights out. The next night she would have to fill in the gaps, before I carried on reading. It helps to make sure they are understanding what they area reading. Being able to re-tell a story succinctly is an important skill.
Or how about a play script, and each reading different parts?
Reading newspaper reports and then discussing hte topic - can be on any subject that interests her.
Maths is harder, but even things like cooking help with numbers.
Would she be interested in computer coding eg.

Hey this is great stuff thanks. Re cooking, shopping, change etc, alas she's not a fan of cooking per say but I could adapt that to what she does like eg SLIME! Hey we do what we must right?

Re the reading, I think you've got something there. Us both reading the same book together would definitely engage her (so long as I let her choose the book!). And re film and theatre, also a great tip I will definitely try out thanks.

I've only played scrabble once or twice myself in the past but more than willing to dust off the old board to try it out with her. Will definitely give the taboo and articulate games a go too, thanks!

Thanks again..

Reading book at the same time - check.

Can you clarify “the next night she would have to fill in the gaps”? This sounds good but I don’t think I fully understand.

A play script also sounds a fantastic idea! Much more likely to engage her.

Newspaper report yep get it - just finding the best fit for her to read will be the challenge there.

Cooking. - yep again for sure I can adapt the process to play to her interests I think.

Computer coding - I’ve been looking around for an after school club but I haven’t found one. I’ll keep looking though.

My dd school were excellent at helping her achieve in every area but English. She'd steadily climbed the groups in everything but this. She has dyslexia and was taught for three years in the bottom set by the same teacher. No disrespect to her and I think it was a very hard group but my daughter had proved she could do better in every other subject, it was just her written English that was letting her down. I spoke to the head of English and explained it all (calmly) that she deserved a chance. So they moved her up and she got a B which we were thrilled at.
They also gave her permission to not do French and she had extra support lessons in that time.
We also gave her every credit and support for the lessons that she loved too, including out of school music lessons.

“the next night she would have to fill in the gaps”? This sounds good but I don’t think I fully understand.

Basically I read chapter 1. DD would carry on reading until lights out, so maybe 2 more chapters. The next night I couldn't possibly read chapter 4 to her until I knew what had happened in chapter 2 and 3 - it wouldn't make any sense would it? So she had to fill me in on what had happened. Sometimes if something came up which I hadn't come across (obviously related to something in a chapter she had read) I would ask her to explain. Helps with comprehension etc. And we could also chat about hte plot, or different characters, their actions, what we might do in a similar circumstance etc.

Just wanted to pop on the thread and say well done dad for listening to the advice and making a plan for your dd 😊 it's hard when we feel our kids aren't progressing as we feel they should. It seems like you're doing the right thing.

Woolduvet thanks. Can I ask then did she stay in the bottom set and get better in all but English until you gently pressed the teacher to give her a chance?
It's sounds like they were willing to swap French at least for extra support which is encouraging!
Did you give extra support out of school on subjects she liked, to build up her general ability? Was that the idea? Sounds like it worked??

Seeline thanks - I get the idea. Fantastic will again try. Thanks for coming back.

Cheers fevertree, vote of confidence appreciated!! Been a rough ride this thread but I'm bloody glad I asked before rushing headlong off a cliff! Worth its weight frankly!

I asked after the second year and they said they thought she should stay there. I said I didn't agree but would go with it. That year everything seemed to click in other subjects and then 8 went back to say she needs the chance to achieve. And won't get it in the bottom set, which was full of behaviour issues and I felt she was flying under the radar. So they agreed.

Tbh she worked so hard at school and with her homework that I didn't ask anything else of her, dyslexia to her means everything takes twice as long to understand and do.
Out of school stuff was fun.
We always did books on tape or cd for her, this has given her an amazing repertoire of words and speaking to her she speaks very well.

Woolduvet thank you - that's really encouraging to hear. Understood what you said and I'm really happy it has worked out for you and your girl!

Re audiobooks. We used to listen to these all the time in primary mainly during trips to and from school. I'd completely forgotten about them! Time for a library visit I think to see what's in. Thanks for the reminder!

Your plan sounds great.

The only think I would change is instead of getting a specific dyslexia test you should get her assessed for learning difficulties. It is very unlikely that school will be able to pay for this or do it in a good time frame so you would need to see a private Ed psych.

It is really obvious from this thread how much you care for your dd and are taking things on board. Just to give a different perspective, I did teach my dd maths at home from books. Mainly CGP or Letts revision guides and workbooks. Teaching really takes a lot of listening to the child. I found it creative in seeing how I could put things into pictures or make it more entertaining. Felt pens and plenty of drawing and graph paper helped. At the end of each lesson, I would get her to indicate with her thumb as to how much she understood it. This gave the message that I did not expect her to get it all at once. After all, maths is practice, like anything else.

This is just my opinion, but I would ask her if she wanted to do this, how often and at what time in the week. The start of year 7 is very tiring though as a lot of energy is going into being social at a new school.
I'm not adverse to a bit of good, old-fashioned bribery: collect 10 stars for a trip out/lego set/cuddly toy.

My dd loved the Percy Jackson books at that age.

I'm glad you came to the conclusion of coffee and tea over shouting and screaming. If she does well in the end of year tests, that will be the time to ask questions. I once went into school with the happy knowledge I did not have to shout and scream, because once my bum had made contact with the chair there was no way they would part again until I had answers. All hints of time were met with a smile and the words, "Yes, but..."

Another one on to say I am impressed how well you have taken on board both advice and some criticism on this thread.

Lots of threads on mn seem futile because the op responds to criticism (which can be over the top) by being defensive.

So refreshing. Good luck with your plan. It sounds great.

I have a mid-low ability DD1 & DD2 with some SpLD.

At school, she will be being taught to her ability along with 20-25 others in her class. The school will have set the timetable according to what they think is needed.

Tutoring / help at home can make a massive difference though.

My DD1 steadily moved up maths sets throughout secondary with regular help from me (including in summer holidays). DD2 (y9) is currently creeping up slowly too. I get DD2 to tell me as they do new topics and then I can go through them slowly with her to make sure she has grasped it, and then before tests we do revision and practice too.

For science again, preparing well for tests can help a lot as it makes them go through the learned info and you can check they understand it. The KS3 and GCSE CGP guides are very good for having the right level of info. I would invest in the KS3 one now if I were you.

English I have found much harder to help with and we now have a tutor for DD2 to give her the focussed 1-1 help that I'm not qualified to give. A long term slow-burn help though would be to get DVDs of Shakespeare plays, and get her used to them so they seem more familiar and more accessible when the time comes.

imo Secondary is about playing the long game. You won't get band movement in a term, or possibly a year. But depending on how they band and set there can still be solid improvements within a band.

What you really don't want is for her to be in too high a set where the pace is too fast and she ends up feeling thick as that will dent confidence which hampers progress.

Thistly thanks and really great to hear I’m getting this at least partly right now!

Teentimestwo thanks for your comment here - really appreciate the feedback. I get what you’re saying about helping with KS3 and KS4 workbooks but actually having been through this thread I’m coming to see that perhaps our main goal should be about building her general confidence, which means using after school not for extra homework per say but for clubs or activities that play to her interests and strengths even if they’re not maths and English. By building this confidence I think the idea is is will create just the right kind “soil” where other plants can grow ie maths and english etc. I’m worried now that if we plague her with extra maths and english homework, that we’re actually not helping the general confidence. I will still press on with her maths tutor once a week (we tried helping with maths at home and decided to switch to a tutor because it wasn’t working) but I’m now less inclined to put her through more “lessons” after school. I’m now more inclined to find clubs and activities after school where she can explore her interests and things she’s good at. As a result, this change would balance out her week better I think. Totally agree on not moving her up a band too quickly, only to have her slide back and have her confidence dented - last thing we want!

I really do appreciate the feedback. Hopefully I’ve understood you correctly but hey there’s a reason my profile picture is Homer Simpson! If I have understood then let’s agree to disagree, to some degree at least!

(OP, while you're being so pleasantly accommodating to well-meaning criticism, could I please point out, in the manner of the obnoxious pedant I am, that it's 'per se', not 'per say'? Thank you for your indulgence)