Shout and scream or Coffee and Tea??

[leightonupman]

Hi there all

I could use your worldly wisdom re my 12 year old little girl.

She’s just started secondary school and has landed in the lowest band.

She’s getting on ok but I’m unhappy about her staying there. The longer she stays there the more comfortable she’s becoming, and the harder I can see it will be to get her to move up a band. Being a Dad I’m terrified she’ll end up in a sht job - hey you gotta think long term right? To my mind we need to intervene now in year 7 whilst she’s doing Key Stage 3, so she’s got a fighting chance of getting some decent GCSEs post KS4.

We are providing a maths tutor to help her once a week, Maths being her weakest area. We are also giving her homework in the absence of homework coming from the school. They don’t seem to give it much at the moment, which is annoying the hell out of me.

Long and short is I am having real trouble putting faith in the school to help her improve - my gut feeling is that they are happy for her to just amble along as she is instead of making extra effort to help her improve and move up, which I can’t accept. I’m not convinced that moving up a band is entirely based on merit or hard results. I think they sometimes move a kid just to move a problem from one place to another. This is my little girl’s future right?

All this angst is taking its toll on me and my wife. My girl is out of earshot when we’re rowing about it. It’s a cause of arguments at home with my wife. I’ve had the initial meeting with the head of KS which didn’t fill me with confidence. Early on in primary school I pressed for extra help but got told to back off and let them do their job, which I accepted at the time. But guess what? My girl didn’t improve and ends up in the lower band in secondary. This time I’m determined not to make the same mistake. I’m taking full control to make sure she’s improving, in loads of time before GCSEs.

We can only do so much at home with the tutor and homework we give her but the kid has to have a life as well right?

When we’ve spoken to her a few times about moving up, she’s not a fan of change and so the move is daunting, but I think she would be glad really - a move up is an affirming thing right?

I’m now treating her lack of progress like a complaint basically. I’m pulling together whatever data I can and getting ready to hurl it at the school and the board in the (likely) event she still hasn’t improved by end of the second term. I’m worried they will try to b sht us again and still do nothing to help.

Should I back off? If so how much? Leave her to it? Or do I go full out and put in a formal complaint that the school isn’t doing enough to help her improve . Where is the middle line? And do I need to stop worrying so much about her future and let things be what will be? And what’s the right approach with the school? A series of calm measured discussions over the coming months to work out what needs to change (not working so far btw), or do I go old school and give the teachers a boll**cking? Sadly this approach seems to have worked for at least one parent I know. Sometimes in big businesses when complaining as a consumer, he who shouts loudest gets heard, and it’s worked for me before, but is this the right approach now?? I can't see an approach to take with teachers that will give me the outcomes we want? What approach works best with teachers to get results from them? Sounds cold I know but please cut me some slack - I'm a stupid bloke. It's the reason I'm asking you guys

I know these teachers are under incredible strain as it is and I am the last one to make someone’s life worse. But again this is my kid’s future. Bottom line is we need my girl to be ready to do well when she gets to KS4 and beyond.

And if there’s any doubt here, we both love this little girl beyond measure - she’s the centre of our lives and just want to do right by her and I will do whatever it takes.

Help me sensible ones, could really use some different perspectives and strategies etc.

And I know I missed a full stop. Skitt's Law.

I stand corrected - indulgence granted .. cheers

Lots of great advice here. Not sure if it has been mentioned but Yahtzee is a great game which includes maths but doesn't scream Educational Activity at you. Also playing charades is really interesting at this age and good fun.

NoLeslie thanks - understood. Thanks for weighing in, I will definitely add them into the mix

When my DD was in juniors and struggling with maths, I signed her up for Kumon lessons. They 'tested' her and set work at a very low level. Her problems were not knowing the basic number bonds, not knowing her tables etc. She came on leaps and bounds, and is now doing a degree.
I have recently been helping a friend's DD with maths and I have found the same problems my DD had. But this girl is now 12 and doesn't know her tables properly or basic number bonds, and because of this she is falling behind - makes a lot of silly mistakes etc. She does have the potential to do well but needs to spend a lot of time learning the basics and also repeating work and questions.
No, this isn't 'fun' but it is essential to learn the basics as it does make the harder concepts much easier to get right.

Hellsbells99 thanks for this. So are we saying here that Kumon is worth a go (maybe in the event the tutor we've got isn't working?). Looking at the website, it's two evenings a week, plus extra work? I have drawn the conclusion that I need to build her general confidence by way of clubs and activities after school (as well as the other fun things others have suggested in this post). Taking up Kumon will absorb two evenings instead of one, but if it's worth it then maybe an option. I'm conscious now I have to get the balance right over her weekly schedule. What's your thoughts? Kumon says "up to two days" - so could be one?

Another point re reading at night. I still read with my 15 year old. Only we might call it reading but actually it's just time when we get focussed 1 to 1 time. Sometimes we read. Sometimes we talk about the book or things that come up. Sometimes he tells me what he's been doing at school or what's bothering him. Sometimes he tells me what he's watching on you tube or we discuss something happening in the world. The reading time is invaluable because its my time to get to know him and understand where I can help or support or when I just need to back off. Going in determined it fix everything is not always a good approach. Sometimes it doesn't need fixing or your child needs to learn to fix it themself.

Hi RedSkyLastNight - fair do. Maybe if one of us took turns to sit with her a while before lights out and do like you say it will be an additional help. I've had some great reading tips so far, so this suggestion is an extra for me. Give her chance to talk, etc. We used to do this but at some point she seemed to need it less - maybe we misjudged and now's the time to revisit it.

Further to the above, I don't ever really do 'extra homework' in term time.

But I do make sure topics are understood (both for homework and for tests) and that tests are properly revised for. We have tended over the years to use the summer and Easter breaks for 'catch up and not forgetting'. So e.g. at primary DDs did holiday diaries for handwriting and spelling practice.

TeenTimesTwo cheers I get where your coming from. I like the idea of a holiday diary. I definitely see a drop off after summer and Easter because of the break. Keeping her ticking over with a diary sounds like a good idea I will definitely bag that one.

My girl's school isn't forthcoming with much homework which was putting the frightens on me before I started this thread. We wanted to supplement this to make sure she was still making enough progress. But now after having had this discussion I'm less inclined to do that anymore. Agree we need to ensure she's ready for any upcoming tests etc as far as we're able.

TeenTimesTwo when you say you make sure topics are understood, how do you do that exactly? The only info I get is what I manage to claw from my girl after school about what she's been doing in lessons today (like pulling teeth), and little else. Her books are left in school so I can't see what's she's done, and so it's difficult for me to know which topics she needs any help with understanding. The only time I will get any idea about this is at parents evening which appears to be scheduled on very small slots ie five minutes a subject!! I mean what's that about?? I don't think it's unreasonable to know this info so I'd be interested to know how you have visibility of your kids' work? Do come back on this, I am keen to know your thoughts.

Move her to a better school. Giving her random homework and a weekly tutoring session isn’t going to make a difference. If you teach a child the skills they require to learn (primarily literacy, numeracy and, reason) they will always do well because they will be good at learning. By the sounds of it your daughter hasn’t learned how to learn yet. You need to be teaching her reason. Maths tutoring should be focused on areas like statistical analysis rather than basic mathematical covdepts which can be easily picked up for rational minded people. How literate is she? If she doesn’t read and wrote confidently then this also needs to be addressed.

I'm glad you listened to the sage advice on here OP. Your first post had be a bit worried this was going to be an an all guns blazing thread.

Sometimes children find transition tough. Sometimes students really do hit their limit or they hit a threshold concept and until that clicks then others don't follow.

What I would say is i genuinely don't get he issue about being in bottom band.
Students need to be in the class that best allows them to learn. There's no point in parents (speaking generally) pushing to be moved up if their child is going to feel out of their depth in the next group. Some of my top classes to teach have been lower groups. We do things a bit differently and a bit slower and the progress gap takes a while to close if doing it properly (vs heavily planning their assessments so the data looks good) and in time they can be writing as well as the class above, if not higher.

There's limited impact on homework so I wouldn't worry about setting it. Homework only really has an impact if it is well designed, purposeful, a certain type of task. Reading together is a good thing to do. You can also look online for books for reluctant readers and they are books for ks3 aged students but with easier language to help catch them up.

Maths tutoring should be concepts and logic (but a maths specialist will probably advise further).

It's worth talking to the school and finding out her strengths and weaknesses. Please don't go in guns blazing, threatening complaints etc as it doesn't resolve anything.

He race card driver - thanks for the note. For our specific situation, moving her to another school would be detrimental at this point, which will out weigh the benefits we're trying to achieve. I'd rather stick it out and build on the relationship we have with school to date to be honest. Get what your saying about the basics - am hoping her maths tutor will crack this one. But as people keep telling me on this thread, we need a partnership with school. Thanks much again.

Masypops thanks. I think I'm past the guns blazing point tbh. If you look back through this thread you'll see I rounded up as many useful ideas that came in as could and formed a new plan (which doesn't including ranting).

I see something in your post which has made me stop and think. The lower band will teach her at a level she can cope with. Ok, I think I get that. You say that the band will give her a little more time to close the gap in her understanding to make progress. That makes sense to me.

So problem still is though, can we affect a change in the rate she understands? Fact is kids in a higher band are more likely to be better prepared for upcoming KS4 and beyond aren't they? I think I'm not doing enough for her if I don't intervene now and early, however I do it.

I get that putting her up now before she's able to handle it will stress her out and achieve little or nothing. I like some better visibility of the glide path she's on - is it going up or down or staying the same? All I've got is a couple of broad measures taken at the beginning of term, which seem to only be repeated another two times in the year. How can I or anyone else be expected to fine tune their approach to helping her if there is no apparent granular data coming from the school on how she's doing? 3 monthly litmus tests just don't cut it for me.

Very frustrating

At DD's school I very rarely see exercise books as they stay in the classroom.

re topics are well understood.

This is primarily for maths and science. When DD has assessments for those 2 subjects they send home a list of topics. As I have a maths degree and am of scientific nature and have the science CGP books, I have enough ability to go through the stuff and make sure she understands it and to help her learn it. So we can go through how to use area of triangle formula, or the transpiration stream and I can put things into accessible language.

The other subjects are harder as their assessments are more 'skill based' and its not my area of expertise. But I help her learn relevant facts (again often supplied prior to assessments) and I can talk through structural things like use of Point Evidence Explain, and structure of 'Which is more important A or B' answers (1. A is important because … we know this because …. for example …. 2. B is important …… 3. On balance I think ….)

I am very hands on. Many MN posters would say far too much. But I don't care much if it helps her get grades 4/5 rather than 2/3 for her end GCSEs. Because I do agree with you, having those magic passes in maths and English (and at least 3 others) will provide many more choices and future options than not having them.

I would suggest spending time with her and help bring on her understanding. Conversations are a powerful learning tool. Go for a walk with her and talk about what you see around you: why/how do leaves change colour? Where does concrete come from and why is it used? What kind of transport will be used in 20 years time etc. It doesn't matter what you talk about, just chat but keep it educational.

With maths and science if you don't get the building blocks you can't learn on top. So by spending more time on them prior to assessments (which is when DD will let me) I'm providing her with more secure foundations to go forward on. This then helps her learn better in class for the next phase.

If you don't know what an atom is, it is hard to learn about ionic bonding.

Flip learning is also helpful. Sometimes I tell her about stuff she hasn't done yet, and say I don't expect her to remember it. But then when she does it in class it isn't all new and scary, so she is more receptive to taking it in.

I dont get the idea of higher bands being 'better' prepared for ks4. Students are prepares at a pace they can manage. Some will hit a higher level sooner as they're more able and ready to. That's the bell curve.

I once taught a lower group at GCSE and got loads of A/A. They needed the slower and steady approach and lots of rehearsal. They didn't need bombarding with A content from day one out of principle to give them high content. They needed a well structured route through that gave them the appropriate information when they were ready.

3 data drops a year is standard for secondaries. To be honest, much more than that and it's a pointless exercise for staff, students and parents.

If a student is responding to the guidance and feedback from the teacher then they'll be making progress. A lull at the start of y7 is common for a lot of reasons, for a start it's a bigger curriculum, new skills, different staff with different methods.

As I say, have a chat with school about strengths and weaknesses.

What support are the schooling giving her to ensure she achieves the minimum at least ie a grade c (whatever it is these days!) in English and maths. My son has SEN and I found the best approach to get him the support he needed was to remain calm but be insistent and always leave each meeting with a concrete plan if next steps. And keep in contact, Keep the pressure on. The children whose parents went in shouting, withdrawing their child or who didn't keep on the school's case, ime, did not get the support their child needed. With this in mind, also remember that you are the only person that will advocate for your child whereas the school have 1000+ other children to worry about. Without advocating, some children's needs do get lost in amongst the crowd.

I found I had to research and make suggestions as to what strategies they could try. This surprised me as I expected the school to be the experts but they were receptive to ideas.

The biggest thing is to remain calm. You don't need to be their mate but try to treat it like s business meeting. Calm, professional, what are we trying to achieve her/what outcomes do we want. You and the school should theoretically be on the same page as you should both want each and every child to achieve their potential.

Personally I wouldn't focus on her moving up a band. That may or may not help her. If she moves into a middle band and is not able to keep up that could destroy her confidence altogether. She should do best in the band that matches her ability.

Stepping back a little, do you have faith in this particular school and the teachers. My son was not initially getting the support he needed and as a result was doing badly. However I knew the school was good and had some amazing teachers so overall I knew it was the right school and I just needed to work with them to get the support right. If you don't have faith in the school perhaps you should be looking at a different school who might be able to give her the support she needs.

None of this is easy but if you get it right it will be worth it. My son went from being on track to expulsion to getting excellent GCSEs, then A levels and is now at university living independently. My son's difficulties were different to your daughter's in that he has always been academically very able but has difficulties with social skills, fine motor skills and executive functioning. However the principles of getting the right support are the same.

I am concerned about the effect this is having in your relationship. You should be pulling together to sort this out. It is one of the most stressful and emotional things I have done, trying to deal with this issue and trying to work with the school to get the right support in place. You have to go into battle mode but remain calm and unemotional in all discussions. I cried and shouted when I got home! Does your wife have a very different view to you about what should happen and how this should be handled? If not, what is causing the arguments?

What about subscribing to something like The Week junior or First News? They're really easy to read, possibly slightly too young for her now, but they might get her reading and interested in politics and current affairs leading on to things you can discuss together or maybe read a bit more about in more adult newspapers.

Curiosity about the world is such an important thing, along with being able to read and count.

There is absolutely no point in agitating for her to move up a band if she cannot manage the work- it will knock her confidence hugely, and likely turn her off school completely.
Kumon is dire, don't do that.
Khan Academy maths is good (online, not physical).
What did she achieve in End of KS2 tests? Is she bottom band in a higj-performing comp, or bog-standard comp?
Don't make learning "fun"! Learning is hard work, and you will do your child more favours if she learns to.work hard, and gets satisfaction from her achievements.
She needs to read every day- aloud to you, and privately in her head. Cut back the phone/social media use. Does she do a sport?

Teen times two

Is it a fair request to ask to see my kid’s work more often than once every three months?
Re Maths and English, ok then so you have some expertise you can apply by the sounds. Fair enough and if I had that I would too no doubt, but sadly we don’t. So, rather like a car and a driving test, rather than teach her bad habits, we opted for the maths tutor. As for the sub topics in English and Maths, we don’t have any view of them. I think I need to ask the question next parents evening. It at least would better inform out maths tutor so she can tune her approach better. As for any tests she’s taken so far, I haven’t seen a dickie bird in terms of what she needs to do to prep. Thanks for the insight here - I’ll add it to parents evening questions (calmly of course!)

Yep get the basics thing - again hoping the tutor is going to crack that with her. Good idea about planting seeds for future etc. I’ll keep that one in mind and try to use it on what I can, based on what’s coming down the road.

Forthelifeofpomme ..

Thanks I’m planning on maybe spending 10 mins with her before bed to chat, read etc (maybe a little more). We do try to engage her with the environment out and about, but the point is still well taken.

Maisypops

Re bell curve yes understood and actually I take that. But one thing that worries me is that this lower band she’s in is filled with behaviour issues from other kids. Many will have learning issues, some have ADHD and so on. They will distract from the teacher’s delivery of the material which is a worry. I guess I just need to be aware of how her class is. Again difficult as I don’t have a view of that.

Re the 4 data drops, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. If the teacher can’t demonstrate how the child is performing at least week to week, then how can they find key their delivery of their material to the kids?

I don’t believe my girl is doing anything other than responding to teacher guidance and feedback but I guess I’ll know a bit more post parents evening.

I will ask about her strengths and weaknesses for sure. I really want an insight into what she’s like in the classroom to know better how to proceed.

Appreciate all the great replies here - thanks again for taking time out..

I think it is great if you start taking your DD to the library - most will have a teen fiction section, but don't forget poetry, graphic novels (very popular with reluctant readers) and also non fiction books on a subject of her choice. Some libraries have a café, which might help! My library runs a manga club for tweens, so might be worth enquiring if yours runs anything similar - might appeal to her artistic tendencies.

Also see if you can support her learning by going on relevant day trips - eg visit a castle if they are studying castles in history, Hampton Court if they are doing the Tudors, a bow lake for geography etc. If you find out what she is doing, there are lots of fun things you can do to support the curriculum.

If you want suggestions of potential books to read, I'm sure posters would be happy to share what was popular with their DC. Might help if you could give an indication of books she has actually enjoyed.

I don't recommend you bringing it up with the school, yet...
Focus on your routine of revision at home. Push her at home and make sure she is making progress as a result of the work you're doing with her at home. She will eventually do better in her topic tests and this, eventually, will result in her being put into a different band.

There will be lots of change between year 7 and 9. Save the hard core attack on the school till year 9, they'll take you more seriously when there are GCSE grades at stake.

Im a teacher (middle leader). I get this countless times and I think you should play the long game.

Good luck.