After school detentions and the law?

[BoooForYou]

Hi long time poster but name changed
(LTB, cancel the cheque etc etc)

DD is year 7. Had a bit of an altercation before half term, silly really. All got given their maths test results and DD was a bit upset by hers (maths is her worst subject).
A lad in her class kept driving her mad to give her result over, she said no so he pinched her and told her to get a grip. DD, and no excuses for this at all, slapped him back.
I got a call at 2.55pm on the last day of term, apparently boy had written a statement backed up by another girl. Fair enough. DD not asked for her side though so could I ask and arrangement made for me to pop in on Monday after holiday.
DD explained the pinching and said she knew she shouldn't have slapped him. We did punish her for this (no tv, phone or net for 3 days, early bedtime too).
Relayed what happened on Monday and was told a minor punishment of missing a class to be in isolation would be given. Did say it was a bit OTT, she has never been in trouble at all before, but told school takes a firm line. I thought both her and the boy would be given same.
Was told I would be called with an update regards this punishment after she had spoken to DD and the other 2 pupils.
Heard nothing but thought school is busy so would hear in due course.
Our car is in the garage so I've been meeting her halfway. She texts on the way too from 3pm.
Waiting today and no texts. Started to worry by 3.05 so walked up towards school. Still not texts and no answer on phone.
Got to school by 3.15, member of staff who watches them leave even expressed concern as no clubs tonight.
Went into office to be told she is in isolation, where she has been all day until 3.30 (30 minutes after school).
No one around without an appointment to speak to but Secretary did say I am meant to be informed.
Finally she came over at 3.35 with one of the isolation staff who I calmly said I had no notification of any after school detention or that she was being isolated all day. Wad told "oh, my bad". Totally didn't see why I was worried!
DD now very upset, no longer wants to go to school and to make matters worse, homework due today wasn't handed in as they refused to allow her to hand it as she was in isolation so now, due to school rule, she will get another detention.
I am so angry by this. I get the need to punish, but surely they are legally required to inform me?
I want to raise it with Governors, DH says no, don't be that parent.
Where do we stand?

I would certainly question why you weren't told about the isolation, as you were very worried when you couldn't contact your DD as she was late. I also would say that you wouldn't accept the detention regarding the homework which the school prevented your DD from handing in on time.

Legally schools can keep your child after school without informing you, I’m afraid.

Generally schools do inform parents, but it’s a matter of courtesy rather than a requirement.

Here’s the government page that explains this: www.gov.uk/school-discipline-exclusions

Schools don't require consent for detentions. Many do out of courtesy but it's not a requirement.

Parents also don't have to be told that their child is in isolation either.

OK.
I just really wish they had of told me. I have no issue with DD being punished, I will always back the school up and support their stance (if obviously they have properly looked into whats happened), and she will receive a punishment at home too.
The Secretary was lovely, offered me a cup of tea I think she could see I was worried. She did say they usually contact the parent.
I think it was the "my bad" comment.
Thanks for the info though.

There was a similar thread recently.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3400049-Keeping-a-child-after-school
I don't think you are unreasonable to want to be notified, regardless of what the tories have decided is legally allowed. 11 is quite young still. If it's a hassle for the school to notify parents they could tell the child to text their parent and let them know instead.
This would be less of an issue with my 11 year old as she walks home the whole way, so by the time she was late home she'd be able to text or answer a text to say she'd just left school and was running late.
Have you considered an app like Life360 where you can see where their phone (and hopefully your child) is? Then you'd be able to see they were still at school.

BoooForYou
I agree. School should have let you know from a moral perspective but that's just my opinion.

Re the detention for not handing in homework that she wasn't allowed to hand in, I'd probably email to ask about that. My dcs' school seem to be pretty reasonable so they'd probably cancel it. Hopefully yours is too.

What the law says and what a reasonable school should do are two different things. This isn’t political! It’s about common sense and working with the parents. It’s reasonable to inform parents of a y7 that the child is in detention after school. Missing the school bus would be an issue for many rural children. Non arrival of a child is always a worry. Schools should understand this. She also should have been allowed to say she was pinched by another child and harassed. This lack of a fair investigation teaches our children nothing. It’s really a form of bullying by the school. What does their Behaviour Policy say? Should they listen to both parties after an incident?

Do complain about the homework. If she completed it on time, she should have been allowed to hand it in. Some schools are more like prisons! Think God my DDs have now left school!

This isn’t political!
If you mean me mentioning the Tories i did so because i believe it was the tories who changed the law a couple of years ago to say that parents didn't need to be notified of after school detentions and i was saying i didn't agree with the change.

I don't think you are unreasonable to want to be notified, regardless of what the tories have decided is legally allowed

This. Fortunately a lot of schools do give 24 hours notice of detentions and so they should.

To be fair though your dd was lucky to only get an internal isolation for a slap. At my ds' school it would have been a day's exclusion.

Sorry, thank you for your messages and suggestions, I've been meaning to reply but as is the law of sod, my car has broken down, my DS is ill and DD was so upset this morning she made herself sick.
DDs friends Mum gave me a call last night as her DS was so worried when he heard where she was. He has seen the boy involved in this incident be off with her at lunchtime. So, the Mum put me in touch with one of the parent Governors who deals with safeguarding.
Had a great chat and advice from her. She agreed legally the school don't have to inform, however, there has long been a precedent that they give 24 hours notice and explanation.
She also said the school have broken their own behaviour policy protocol by giving her a whole day in school exclusion. She said she would be raising that if it was her child as there have never been any concerns raised. She said as it has had such a negative effect I should email and ask to be debriefed as to why the punishment was so severe, why they didn't ask DD her side before punishing and why they failed to inform me.
With regards the maths homework, it was in that class the incident happened, and DD has now said she hates this class, it's far too fast paced, (it's 2nd from bottom group, she is really not confident in maths and previously at Primary school had extra lessons with a small group as she was struggling) and the teacher shouts at her. She said she feels she cant ask the teacher for help as she gets annoyed. Not a great situation.
I emailed the homework to her and explained that I felt she couldn't be subjected to a detention when she had been prevented from handing it in, and at the same time I asked politely if I could be told what her understanding of the incident was. Not had a response yet and not surprised as it's a school day.
I've emailed bullet points- very to the point -this is what we are concerned by, and what we would like to happen next. I received an acknowledgement within an hour so hopefully we will get to the bottom of it.

I would also ask that as the boy pinched her and she hit him there is a change of seating plans for both of their benefits.

Hopefully the school know the boy pinched her?

What about the boy who started this all in the first place?

The teacher has already moved DD so he won't be able to pinch her as easily in the class.
She said when she was taken over to the exclusion room, she tried to tell the head of Year and then the women running the room that she had been pinched but was told to be quiet. She said the women in there were horrible, at one point a boy in there had got his maths homework out and done it- bar their pencil cases and books, their phones and belongings are placed in a locked cupboard all day, and when he was told to show one of the staff, she shouted that he was a cheat, and must have a hidden calculator. DD said it really frightened her, and the boy cried and was then told off for this too. I get the whole deterrent angle, it's no doubt supposed to instill better behaviour, however I think there's a fine line between school punishment and unnecessary levels of nastiness. The whole being walked over in silence to get lunch or go to the loo is ridiculous!
It seems the boy has received no punishment at all. Now DD has said she worries he knows he can do what he likes, she can't stick up for herself, or she will be in huge trouble.
I've raised it with the school though, and said the whole situation has been managed appallingly, outside of their own policy, and totally disproportionately. They have, down to their complaints procedure, two weeks to respond.
The sad thing is, on talking to the governor, the in school exclusion was thought up by the previous head. It was in no way meant to be used as it has been, more it was to do that days work and be spoken to, calmly, about their choices. It was a last chance thing though. She did say the current head has, in the year she's been in the role, undone a lot of good stuff put in place, parents aren't permitted on school grounds without an appointment, you can't speak to anyone accept by email, there is one open evening for parent teacher conferences so you're lucky if you can grab 1 minute with a teacher, and she has this whole procedure now for complaints when previously, you could informally chat to governors and then speak to the head with them. I got the impression she wasn't a fan at all. They do try and keep you as far from staff as possible, the whole child missing but management won't speak to me without an appointment really shocked me.

Your tame parent Governor is atrocious! What a gossip! She’s not undertaking her role effectively by talking to you like this. She does not understand her role either and it’s extremely worrying that she’s the Safeguarding lead! I bet the Head isn’t keen on that.

Additionally, the behaviour policy (which includes internal exclusions) is agreed by the Governors. It’s monitored by the Governors regarding its effectiveness. She needs to stop blaming the Head and start looking at how the Governors influence the ethos of the school. It’s her job to do that. She should also be aware that if the Head has unilaterally changed the Behaviour Policy, the Governors need to approve any changes.

That's the thing, it's not really changed, it's just not being followed to what it was set up to do.
She said as a result of my speaking to her, she would be raising a question at their next meeting, not specifically naming my DD but asking for the recent data on in school exclusion use and what this was used for.
I think, obviously I don't know the politics and gossip as we've been there for 5 minutes, it seems there is divisions, but I think as well it takes a while for a Heads style to bed in, especially when she replaced a very popular Head who made popular changes. It's often brought up amongst older parents that they miss the openness of the school, but that's nothing new.
I wasn't, fwiw bothered on the gossip, I just wanted advice for what is best for DD in the longer-term

The teachers sound pretty crap. They should at least get a story from both sides before barrelling in with punishment

Awwww bless your DD. It's horrible when you react totally out of character for yourself, feel bad for it and then on top of it feel unlistened too and stuck in a negative spiral of trouble.

As for detentions I agree with you. I don't think it's acceptable at all to detain a child and not even have to explain to parents why. It gives schools too much power to act unfairly towards pupils. Most don't. But there are an increasing number of schools taking zero intolerance where pupils are punished for being human.

Your DD shouldn't have slapped him. But it was a reaction rather than a deliberate action and the poor handing has left her feeling anxious. You are absolutely right to be 'that parent' in this case.

The boy must be feeling quite smug right now that he goaded her and pinched her and got away scot-free with it while she spent the day in isolation for retaliating.

Yes that's my (and DDs) worry that he's probably going to find it hilarious, the little sod.
It is so out of character for her, she has a younger brother who has gotten her used to annoying boys(!) and she knows she really didn't handle it the correct way. I think it was last lesson, at the end of a very full on first half term, in a subject she really struggles in, and she did just lash out without thinking. The first thing she said on getting in the car afterwards was she made a mistake, she had hit someone, she knew she would have to deal with it and she did have a punishment at home which she didn't argue with.
Shes a good kid, it makes me laugh that the same week as this has happened with the whole exclusion thing and after school too, her science teacher sent us an email saying how lovely she is and how she works hard and is a pleasure to teach.
I think it's achieved what it sets out to as she doesn't ever want to be subject to the in school exclusion again, but she also said she doesn't think it was fair as they didn't ask why she did it. She also said now she thinks all the teachers will think she's badly behaved.
We already had the good half term report but not enough Achievement Points to go on a special off site treat, or any postcard home saying she is doing well. She even popped in with me when I picked DS up from Primary and she asked the Deputy Head "was I really naughty here cos the school think I am" which was so sad.
It's knocked her, and I really hope they get that and do everything to change that perception.

I would try to really encourage her in her schoolwork even if she doesn't have support from all her teachers. I hope things improve for her

It sounds like the school should have investigated the original incident better. The boy should have also been sanctioned.

As for the isolation not being used effectively, a situation where a student had slapped another is the sort of situation that would have meant isolation in most schools.

I'm in agreement with the PP who expresses concerns about the governor. I think they're being quite unprofessional in their discussions with the OP. It sounds like the governor is quite happy to shit stir and fan the flames of any reservations parents may have about the new head in my opinion.

The school should have let you know. After the final bell for the day, I personally don't think they have any right to do things with your child without letting you know.

Also walking home from school, parents need to know if their child is due to be late as that could be the difference between them panicking that they're in some sort of trouble or needing help.