After school detentions and the law?

[BoooForYou]

Hi long time poster but name changed
(LTB, cancel the cheque etc etc)

DD is year 7. Had a bit of an altercation before half term, silly really. All got given their maths test results and DD was a bit upset by hers (maths is her worst subject).
A lad in her class kept driving her mad to give her result over, she said no so he pinched her and told her to get a grip. DD, and no excuses for this at all, slapped him back.
I got a call at 2.55pm on the last day of term, apparently boy had written a statement backed up by another girl. Fair enough. DD not asked for her side though so could I ask and arrangement made for me to pop in on Monday after holiday.
DD explained the pinching and said she knew she shouldn't have slapped him. We did punish her for this (no tv, phone or net for 3 days, early bedtime too).
Relayed what happened on Monday and was told a minor punishment of missing a class to be in isolation would be given. Did say it was a bit OTT, she has never been in trouble at all before, but told school takes a firm line. I thought both her and the boy would be given same.
Was told I would be called with an update regards this punishment after she had spoken to DD and the other 2 pupils.
Heard nothing but thought school is busy so would hear in due course.
Our car is in the garage so I've been meeting her halfway. She texts on the way too from 3pm.
Waiting today and no texts. Started to worry by 3.05 so walked up towards school. Still not texts and no answer on phone.
Got to school by 3.15, member of staff who watches them leave even expressed concern as no clubs tonight.
Went into office to be told she is in isolation, where she has been all day until 3.30 (30 minutes after school).
No one around without an appointment to speak to but Secretary did say I am meant to be informed.
Finally she came over at 3.35 with one of the isolation staff who I calmly said I had no notification of any after school detention or that she was being isolated all day. Wad told "oh, my bad". Totally didn't see why I was worried!
DD now very upset, no longer wants to go to school and to make matters worse, homework due today wasn't handed in as they refused to allow her to hand it as she was in isolation so now, due to school rule, she will get another detention.
I am so angry by this. I get the need to punish, but surely they are legally required to inform me?
I want to raise it with Governors, DH says no, don't be that parent.
Where do we stand?

Way to alienate a nice normal pupil. I mean hopefully with your support she won't go off the rails but it will be no thanks to being treated like shit by the teachers.

Cauliflower: The role of a governor is to challenge and support the school. Governors are expected to know if the school behaviour policy is working and fit for purpose. They don’t write it but must know if it’s effective. Therefore all data relating to the effectiveness and use of the policy is absolutely something Governors should know. If should be part of the Heads report to Governors and ideally an individual governor will monitor it. Ofsted will be looking at behaviour and it’s management and the Governors cannot say they don’t know how the policy operates or how effective, or otherwise, it is. If it’s not effective they should expect something to be done about it. It can be part of the Head’s Performance management for example.

Critical friend is not current terminology. Governors are not critical and they are not friends. They must challenge and support via the appropriate routes and methods. Not challenging the effectiveness of a behaviour policy is neglecting their duties.

I only hope this starts getting resolved by Monday - It might also be worth looking at other schools - I suspect you won't be alone on this.
It seems that Ms Iron Fist is Ms Brittle Fist and she is staking her territory via low hanging fruit as it were - pick on those whom she doesn't think will challenge her.

I'm watching this thread with interest since my oldest DS has ASD and believes strongly in rules and tries his best. However, rules that have no rational basis or are enforced in an erratic fashion which would make him vulnerable to exactly the kind of nonsense your daughter is enduring.

It sucks but I wonder if staff morale is circling the drain - how did this school appear when you first looked around?

I think with DD, it's very lucky that she has a very good group of friends (her phone went crackers with them all texting her). Also with the exception of her maths teacher, she likes her other tutors and the feeling seems to be mutual as they sang her praises in her half term report. Her form tutor is also exceptionally supportive of her form too, they all get to school half hour early at least and hang out in their tutor room in the art block with her and they know they can chat to her. It's quite sweet actually as they grab a hot chocolate and a breakfast roll and chat until 8.30 together and it's certainly helped the settling in process.
I copied her in on the complaint and she immediately emailed apologising saying she felt awful as she hadn't been told either, she said she would be working hard to bolster DD back up again.
I think now at this point, DD knows I'm cross and dealing with it, and actually, she is cross too, rather that than how she was Thursday. I have said though she can't now give up, if anything she needs to keep on with her work and prove anyone else wrong.
I hope actually from this that the Head realises that the behaviour policy is there for a reason, she may see us as easy picking but she's very much mistaken! I've worked hard to make sure both my DC have and show respect. I will be pushing for this to be removed from her record or at the least a notification added.

I'm annoyed the boy got away with it and it's not even my kid!
The FT sounds lovely

@Aventurine you're not the first to say that, her best friend (he's a lovely little chap) called her and I spoke to his mum who said she was cross on our behalf, not least because the circumstances are ridiculous but also as her boy was upset not to be with her at lunchtime as it unsettled him (he has aspergers so not being able to sit as usual and draw together upset him).
And yes, tutor is lovely, DD is arty anyway so it's her dream environment. She's only just joined too, is very young and switched on. They keep the same one throughout school so it's good to have someone I know will support her who she would talk to if she needed to and who I can chat with too.

boo you come across as very balanced and not 'one of those parents* in the circumstances, I feel awful for your dd she must have felt so isolated. The punishment does seem very heavy handed especially as the boy appeared to have got away with it.

Not sure what this teaches our children about regarding honesty. I hope you will update us and, your dd comes through this ok it sounds like she is well supported, my dd starts secondary next year and is scared of this sort of thing I stupidly reassured her that you have to be pretty naughty to get an exclusion 😳 . I also struggle to believe that legally a school can keep a child without informing a parent what a ridiculous and unsafe policy. I really hope my dd's secondary has better policy's than this. Well done for supporting the school but, it really should work both ways.

I think the school sounds really over the top in its management of behaviour. Your daughter has only just started secondary school and getting used to a new environment. The school should have spoken with both children about the original incident and the boy should have been dealt with too. What on earth did the school think would be gained by keeping a young girl in isolation all day and after school detention. No wonder your DD wants to change school - in her shoes I would too! When I was at secondary school in the 80’s her actions and the fact that it was a first offence would have meant lunchtime detention. The boy would have got a similar punishment. I am staggered that the school didn’t ring you to let you know about the after school detention. Your Dd is only 11/ 12 and may have only just started to make her own way to school. As a parent, a child being late home is worrying. At times I really think schools forgot that they are there to provide parents and the local community a service.

I'd be asking the school why they have such a sexist policy in place. A boy assaults a girl but she is punished for defending herself?

This is one of those things I wouldn't care about becomeing 'that' parent.

Yes she's 11, and until this week I've driven her in (schools a good 30 minute walk), but the car has finally clapped out. Luckily DS school has a different week off but from tomorrow she will be walking there and back without me walking part way (our neighbours daughter is year 9 and has kindly offered to buddy up to walk with her). I can only imagine the state I would've been in waiting for her at home (although I'm aware that sounds daft as some kids are already out and about on their own).
It's probably too late now for the boy to be punished, I'm anticipating them saying that as this happened before half term so a fortnight odd ago.
I would've fully supported a lunchtime detention, I had already said as much. It just felt so underhanded.
I do try and be measured and supportive, my mum was a loon and would rant at my school over nothing which made my life miserable at school. I have however told them I am unimpressed by this as she's been there half a term and already I felt I had no choice but to complain. There will be a meeting this week according to the Head so I shall see what they say but they have a lot of ground to make up. DH is going to come along if he can too as he was livid!
I'm loathe to move her though but only because she has got some great teachers and a lovely group of mates. It would be crap in the long run to pull her out and I don't think she should miss out when it's the school who have screwed up.

The best thing is these situations isn't to argue black and white with them but ask them simply "what are you going to do as a school to repair the damage you've caused in DD confidence." "How are you going to work with ds to reassure her you made a mistake by not investigating and finding out she was assaulted first and unfairly punished based on incorrect information".

Don't ever waiver on the fact they dealt with this unequally. Then email after to confirm all that was said.

I also find never mentioning the punishment was incorrect but rather "why wasn't I informed as per your behaviour policy" etc is the best way.

Even ds amazing school who are totally fair usually do not back down on their decision to punish. They will admit admin errors though.

Your poor DD-I’m not surprised you’re cross. This sounds like it has been very badly handled by the school

Thanks for the advice @youarenotkiddingme
When I emailed, I kept it to bullet points, one set why did this happen and the other set what are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. I said in one of the points I didn't disagree that her reaction was punishable but I asked them to explain the decision to go straight to the second most severe punishment.
I hope it does work in my favour that when I had the meeting on the Monday with the "my bad" woman, I agreed that it went without saying she would face some level of punishment but she said it would be in line with their policy.
I don't want to get to a point with them where we can't work together again and they don't see me as approachable, however, I will expect some answers and I will ask them to email the result- I like that idea so thank you.

It's not too late for the boy to be punished fot his part in this - it's very important that he is. If the school now are made aware of information that they previously didn't bother to find out, they must put this right by not allowing this child to get off scot free.
I would be making a formal complaint. It's not about being that parent, it's about advocating for your child, because if you don't do it, what does that say to her?
Sometimes with schools you have to make it clear that you are watching how they behave and will hold them to account. Many schools are fab and you can trust them to do things properly, but based on ehat you have seen here, your dd's school isn't one of thrm.
I'd certainly be mrntioning yhr bullying behaviour of the isolation supervisors along eith the fact thst your child was denied a whole day of education, which goes against everything schools are supposed to be about.

Don't worry, it is a Formal Complaint. It had to be as that's how they deal with stuff like this apparently.
I would like to see the boy get in trouble, I'm just anticipating they may not, DD has been moved away from him already at my request. She said she is finding the lesson so hard and too fast paced and she's getting behind, she's not one to stay in a group if she can't hack it, she was in a situation before where a teacher piled maths work on her and she got so far behind it made her withdraw and lose confidence and we've always told both the DC there's no shame in admitting you find things tough. She has asked me to put forward going down a group where the teaching is slower and it's a smaller group too so she would have more chance of getting help if she gets stuck.
I will also be telling them straight that the attitude of the woman in the Exclusion Room and the one who said my bad are appalling, luckily I've emailed the tutors whose classes she missed and they said she's not missed too much and as long as she has done the homework she should be fine, but it's still not ideal and it is something I flagged in my email complaint.
I will update when I know more, I really hope this is a one off.

I’d remove my child from a school like this, sounds Draconian! She was pinched so she defended herself. Nothing wrong with that. Victim blaming at its worst.

I’d be livid at keeping her after school without telling you, I don’t give a shit what the law thinks. My dd has just started at secondary and has to catch a bus and we live rurally. I hope you made that clear in your complaint, they might take it a bit more seriously next time and adjust their procedure. It might well be a rural child another time and if they haven’t notified the parents how the hell are they meant to get home? Sounds like a safeguarding issue to me. Perhaps it will get back to the governors in their data report that the current procedure isn’t quite working and they can do something about it. The draconian head still needs to answer to the governors.

@whyohsky At first when she came home and on Thursday morning she was adamant she was never going back to the school. Then just after 3pm, she started getting texts and calls from her mates, all upset, and all begging her not to leave and not to let it bother her. So she changed her mind. That's why I'm trying really hard not to lose my temper and allowing the school to investigate and explain what in earth they thought they were doing, not just on the possible safe guarding issue of not informing me out of courtesy that she would be kept in an extra half hour, but also the whole not asking her side before punishing her alone, the whole rudeness of the staff to her and to me, and the fact she missed an entire days work. I'm still as of this morning waiting for the deputy head to get back to me with his findings as per what the head teacher told me last week after I made the formal complaint.
I've had to email her again as another boy, friend of pinch boy, decided to tell people she was in tge exclusipn room all day for beibg racist to him. This is categorically untrue and never mentioned to me at any point, but as I've now said to the school, all they have achieved is to make my DD feel she can't stand up for herself and won't be given the chance to give her side. The Boy who pinched her is also going to think he is like the Teflon Don of Year 7 who can be a ragtag to his peers and get away with it, and any other little git who fancies it can be off about her too. She was really panicked by it as she said she was worried they would come and pull her out of class again on his say so.
But apart from that we wait and see.

What sort of institutions are some teachers running 😳

I can really see why some kids who are fine at primary do so badly at secondary. It's hard adjusting to a big impersonal environment but throw in poor supervision, draconian policies and unpleasant staff then no wonder.

Yes I agree.
I totally get that they need to teach that retaliation is never the answer, but this was totally OTT when they didn't also discipline the child who kicked it off in the 1st place.
I mentioned it to her old head yesterday as I'm helping out with a PTA event tomorrow and she always asks after DD. She was horrified! She said DD was well behaved and anytime they had a minor issue they knew they could work together with me.
I'm really starting to get miffed that it's been a week since I emailed and they've still not finished investigating. Its not exactly difficult to work out they failed to follow not one but two separate procedures put in place by the school. They didn't ask for her side or speak to any children who weren't involved directly with the incident. They didn't follow the behaviour policy and give her a verbal warning for a first offence but went straight for a in school all day exclusion and after school detention. And they didn't give me 24 hour notice of keeping her in all day and after school.

What does the school’s Complaints Policy say about when they must respond after a complaint is received? A week isn’t very long. They should acknowledge receipt though.

It suggests 2 weeks
The Head teacher did respond within an hour of me sending it though, the only reason I thought I would've heard by now was she said she had asked the Deputy Head to investigate and he would get back to me early this week.
I just want it all dealt with now. Not for me but for DD who feels like she's about to get in trouble at the drop of a hat.

Received an email quite late last night.
We are now not having a meeting, just an attachment with their response.
Have to say, I am really pretty unimpressed.

Basically, they're saying the woman I met with on the Monday (The "my bad" woman) has denied not having told me of the in school exclusion, how it carries on after school, and says that it's my fault they didn't ask for DDs side as they told me to get this myself.
This is all categorically untrue. She said she would speak to DD then get back to me before a decision was made.
They've not even commented about how she missed a whole day of education.
To make it worse, I was told originally that her maths teacher had raised that there had been an incident in class- it now turns out pinch boy and kick girl went to student well being and reported DD slapping pinch boy. They effectively went to do that knowing the trouble it would cause. They have still not been punished. I'm not telling DD that happened as she's already worried enough without her finding out that you can be hit and then grassed up.
They've said they don't believe they acted badly due to my not knowing where DD was as when I went to the office they told me. They maintain though that my bad woman told me, yet can't explain why the office told me 15 minutes after I was waiting and trying to get hold of DD.

The rest makes me sound awful, they're now going to minute any discussions I have if I speak to any staff again. They wouldn't have broken their behaviour policy if I had of gotten DDs side. They also deny she was distressed or that I had reason to be.

I'm so cross. It makes me sound like I'm on the phone or in school kicking off every day. The one thing they admit to not following is the behaviour policy but then that's turned into my fault too.

I'm thinking I should escalate it now, but worry that after raising this, justifiably I feel, they now act like I'm an arse and a nuisance and I don't want to make it worse for DD or myself.

I would explain to the school that they cannot expect support for their regime if they are untruthful and do not punish all students that were violent during the incident. They can expect this to happen