After school detentions and the law?

[BoooForYou]

Hi long time poster but name changed
(LTB, cancel the cheque etc etc)

DD is year 7. Had a bit of an altercation before half term, silly really. All got given their maths test results and DD was a bit upset by hers (maths is her worst subject).
A lad in her class kept driving her mad to give her result over, she said no so he pinched her and told her to get a grip. DD, and no excuses for this at all, slapped him back.
I got a call at 2.55pm on the last day of term, apparently boy had written a statement backed up by another girl. Fair enough. DD not asked for her side though so could I ask and arrangement made for me to pop in on Monday after holiday.
DD explained the pinching and said she knew she shouldn't have slapped him. We did punish her for this (no tv, phone or net for 3 days, early bedtime too).
Relayed what happened on Monday and was told a minor punishment of missing a class to be in isolation would be given. Did say it was a bit OTT, she has never been in trouble at all before, but told school takes a firm line. I thought both her and the boy would be given same.
Was told I would be called with an update regards this punishment after she had spoken to DD and the other 2 pupils.
Heard nothing but thought school is busy so would hear in due course.
Our car is in the garage so I've been meeting her halfway. She texts on the way too from 3pm.
Waiting today and no texts. Started to worry by 3.05 so walked up towards school. Still not texts and no answer on phone.
Got to school by 3.15, member of staff who watches them leave even expressed concern as no clubs tonight.
Went into office to be told she is in isolation, where she has been all day until 3.30 (30 minutes after school).
No one around without an appointment to speak to but Secretary did say I am meant to be informed.
Finally she came over at 3.35 with one of the isolation staff who I calmly said I had no notification of any after school detention or that she was being isolated all day. Wad told "oh, my bad". Totally didn't see why I was worried!
DD now very upset, no longer wants to go to school and to make matters worse, homework due today wasn't handed in as they refused to allow her to hand it as she was in isolation so now, due to school rule, she will get another detention.
I am so angry by this. I get the need to punish, but surely they are legally required to inform me?
I want to raise it with Governors, DH says no, don't be that parent.
Where do we stand?

OP. Governors should receive data on the operation of the Behaviour Policy as a matter of report every term. They must know how many exclusions there are: permanent, fixed term or internal. If they don’t know, they have no idea how well, or not, the policy is working. Behaviour policies are about reinforcing good behaviour in school. Punishments and sanctions are part of the policy as well as rewards. An exclusion policy is usually a separate document.

Governors should never duscuss individual children. They are not parental delegates on the Governing Body. However I can see you need support in this situation so if the school reports exclusions accurately, and there has been an increase in their use, Governors can ask questions as to the effectiveness of the policy. That is their role. It’s not bringing parental complaints to the Governing Body.

That governor is appalling and should not be meddling in internal affairs like that.

The school should have let you know, even though it’s not required.

You don’t know that the boy who pinched her wasnt in trouble and it’s not your business to know.

If you want to raise a query with the school then by all means do so, but I strongly feel this should be done privately and without your daughter knowing (or the gossipy governor).

Schools don’t have to report internal exclusions to governors. Or anyone.

Only FTEs and PEXs.

A slap would be an internal isolation at my school.

What would worry me about this system is that it could encourage bullies to goad people into a reaction

That’s exactly how kids operate - they don’t bother annoying kids who don’t react - it’s boring.

If you have a firework, you light it!

They should both have been in trouble but the OP doesn’t know the other boy wasn’t and schools don’t discuss other children’s sanctions with other parents.

Sorry there seems to be some mistake here. He has not at any stage been punished. DD was never, and has still never, been given the opportunity to give her side. I was told she would be in an initial meeting on Monday, but this was not sought (hence the "my bad" comment from the woman I had the meeting with), and the punishment received by DD was based on his statement and the statement of another who also hit her. At first before half term I was told they had 5 statements all the same, now it's 2 but they "differ". Yet no one, at any time, has asked DD and when she tried to speak up through tears on Wednesday she was told to shut up.
I want to reiterate that I do, 100%, back the school on discipline. If she messes up, sure, she needs to be shown this isn't OK.
However, I fail to see the point of advertising a Behaviour policy with stages dependent on previous behaviour and stating quite clearly all sides are sought before a decision is made, if they then do not follow through with asking DD (or anyone else who isn't mates with this boy and girl) and going straight to the 3rd highest punishment step when she hasn't had so much as a detention or verbal warning (as there have been no other incidents at all).
I was welcoming of advice from the Governor purely because we have never experienced issues like this before, not to mention detentions. I'm not saying she never had the odd blip at Primary for which she was told off (but this was more not doing homework or being a little silly with friends) but as a first time secondary mum it's all new. I don't think she was out of order as she was explaining that the system was very effective but has been irrevocably damaged to the detriment of students like my daughter by a Head teacher who seems to want to run the school with an iron fist but when things go wrong as they have here, locks herself in school and refuses to discuss without it being done officially.
The last thing I wanted was an official complaint, or investigations. I just want to feel that my daughter is safe and supported and dealt with fairly like every other child, not that they decide to silence her, leave her open to further bullying, and act like she's known as trouble as she's not.
I also don't see how it helps to instill discipline which results in 5 periods of education being missed entirely. She wasn't given any work to do, and as all her homework was on the PC in the schools online system, she couldn't do that either. She sat, from 8.45am to 3.30pm, on a chair, and did nothing. She missed core subjects such as English and Science, as well as history and IT. How is that helpful? Surely they could have collected work for her? But then I feel it further suggests that this was rushed and last minute, hence why I wasn't, as is school protocol, given any notification at all.
I hope that clears that up.

You need to make this an official complaint.

You are right. They haven't followed the behaviour plan and left an 11yo feeling anxious and fearful of being bullied after already being physically hurt.

Ok, she did wrong by slapping him. No one is denying that and neither are you. But kids, especially girls, need to feel they have a right to defend themselves and be heard. Nothing is ever black or white.

I've also been involved in situations where schools deal with black and white because they are fearful of making a judgement in the grey area as there's always some parent who complains about this. "Where's the witnesses" etc.

However they haven't even gone black and white here. They have half the information. They've taken action on half the information.

My betting is this is because the boys parents went in all huffy because he'd been slapped. They probably got in there first and school is trying to stop them escalating to protect their reputation.

Thanks @youarenotkiddingme, I'm desperate to avoid coming across as the dreaded "My kid is innoccent" mum! Straight off the bat I agreed that if it appeared she had hit him, especially unprovoked, then detention all the way and we revoked her screen time at home.
It has left her feeling like she can't speak up or stick up for herself. I did explain telling the teacher would've been the better option, apparently the teacher wasn't in the room and I think there's an element of them not gelling anyway (DD says she shouts a lot, isn't very approachable and has had a few in tears). Not that that excuses her reaction.
I've made a formal complaint and it's being investigated so until then, all we can do is reassure DD that it will be sorted. She's just upset it will mean Behaviour Points and be on her record now.

You're not at all in my eyes!

Been with similar with ds. He stabbed a boy in the arm with his pen. His teacher (who didn't actually appear to like him anyway!) tried to give him equal punishment to the other lad. She had not been in lesson. Supply teacher was there, witnessed it and put other lad in detention.

Why? Because ds had been sat at his desk working and other lad walked from his desk to ds and put him in a headlock. Ds couldn't get him off so stabbed him.

I simply wrote to HOY asking for policy regarding teachers intervening physically to support students being injured, policy re a teacher not present then punishing based on their interpretation of events from supply email and policy that says students who react to physical violence will get a greater punishment.

I just pointed out by law teachers are protected to act reasonably and proportionately where necessary to any violence from pupils and they can't morally (at least!) deny the pupils the same right!

I know your DD situation is slightly different as ds was fighting off this lad. But the principle still stands and this is why o agree with your stance.

Sorry unequal punishment. She tired to give ds a harsher punishment than supply had given other boy. Despite supply not thinking ds should have got punished at all.

Sorry, who told her to “shut up”?

One of the women in the Exclusion area.
These women are not teachers, they are independent staff, they run the Exclusion Room along with a pupil chill out area. It's supposed to be a place of calm, for pupils to access help and advice when needed, as well as individual mentoring.
However DD said the lady who sat with them all day (DD and 2 older boys who she doesn't know) was really quite aggressive. It was her who despite watching like a prison guard all day reduced one of the boys to tears accusing him of cheating which I mentioned upthread.
DD had never encountered her before and says she hopes she never does again.
She did say she bumped into the oldest boy in there with her yesterday at lunch who said hello and asked her was she Ok now, he also asked what she got sent there for. When she told him, he said it was mean, gave her a Mars bar and told her she can find him anytime a boy starts on her.
I told her she should probably decline the kind offer, but it certainly cheered her up that an older one checked she was ok.

It is quite simply wrong that a child should be detained after school without the parents being informed. Common sense, basic good manners and a safety issue.

I am a school governor and if this happened I would be kicking up more than a bit of a stink with the head.

Children have a deep sense of justice - for her explanation not to be sought or listened to; for the boy to have no punishment - these are just the sorts of things that put children off a school for good.

There is a difference between discipline and insensitive handling of difficult situations.

I think the school were wrong and I also think you are being remarkably patient! Is there a medal icon to be had!

Mishappening you might think it’s wrong but it is in fact legal.

Personally I agree that parents should be informed but I respect the right of Headteachers to decide for their schools.

As a governor your role is not to “kick up more than a bit of a stink” with the Headteacher. It is to be a critical friend and to have a strategic overview of the aims and policies, not to “kick up stinks” about internal procedures.

I get that legally they did nothing wrong although I'm quite surprised by that, as you said it would've been courteous to inform me. I'm not unapproachable.
I was worried sick, and of course in the long run she was in school, for 20 minutes I didn't know that. It was entirely out of character, and lots of scenarios, none of them great, went through my head.
DH and I have however decided that we do need to help her grow indendence, she's never even been to stay at a friend's overnight, or walked to our local shop. It's never been intentional but I think it's made us aware that we are close to a time when she will want to go off with her mates.
All that being said, it would have been a very quick phone call, one which I know others have had.
I will have to ask whether they meant to phone and either forgot, or it was a conscious decision after the meeting I had had where I said I had no issue with a punishment, just as long as all sides had been given. They knew that hadn't happened.

I do indeed understand that it is technically legal - I did not dispute its legality but think it is quite simply wrong.

Our head would never dream of allowing this in school; and if he did I would indeed make the appropriate noises - and I know that I would be supported by the rest of the governing body. Being a critical friend is a tightrope walk that the government has never been able to define - but I would be being very critical indeed if a parent is not informed that their child would not be coming home at the usual time.

It would be for the Headteacher and senior leadership team to decide the procedures.

Agree school should have told you in advance, even if not legally required. Schools like to talk about partnership with parents- here is an example of where that should come into play, even if they are not legally obliged to notify you.
And the "my bad" is irritating and dismissive.
But your daughter is upset about her punishment. Not about you not being notified. They are separate issues.
The punishment itself isn't out of order and she should accept it without making a song and dance about leaving school.

I think the law is wrong in this regard

I agree. I think they should give at least 24 hours’ notice. It’s the polite thing to do.

The government made out like this was a brilliant way to give schools power - but it’s really not, in my opinion.

I don't think she's making a song and dance. She went in Friday, she was just upset Thursday.
I have treated them as separate issues as well.
Fwiw and I feel I have to say it again, I have no issue with discipline in schools. I just feel this was OTT for a 1st offence, and the policy backs this up. The added one sided enquiry adds to that, coupled with the boy and girl also not being punished.
Agree with poster who said the my bad comment was dismissive. It just felt so obnoxious!

Where i work we give 24 hours' notice but it's the child's responsibility to inform their parent, not ours. Sometimes if it's a Friday, we'll ring and see if we can keep them same day just to get it over with but it's too much of a committment to do it for every detention.

I mean I got the school bus and mobiles were banned. It would have been very irresponsible for the school to keep me behind the same day without informing my parents.

@HenryInTheTunnel- DD didn't know either. She went to her form room for registration, Form tutor didn't know either, she was just going into her first lesson and her head of Year turned up.
Head of Year then told her off for not going straight to, as she termed it to DD "IER" .
She apparently didn't find it concerning that not only did DD not know what IER was or where it took place, she voiced that she had no clue why she was meant to be there. Head of Year simply told her not to lie, as "your Mum has been emailed".
DD knew if I had of known I would have told her, but both the Head of Year and the staff told her to either stop lying, quieter down and then shut up.
It's cruel.