Going for better school...

[user789653241]

I had a thread here before and had great advice from a lot of posters regarding going for scholarship and bursary.

DS is exceptional at maths, and also doing better than average in English, and he is in YR5.
I had a talk with my ds in depth, and he doesn't seems to want it at all, like preparing for entrance exam etc. He is very strong willed and wouldn't do anything he doesn't want to. So preparing for the entrance exam will be unlikely.
He says he is happy to go to local sinking school with his friends. Destination isn't great, I am not sure if they do actually accommodate his needs or not and only goes up to 16.
What I really wonder is, can he be able to go further is he wanted to, even after attending sinking secondary school?
I really don't want to send him to where he doesn't want to. But worried his outcome maybe restricted. I don't think many will go to further education at this school, many end up leaving school as fast as they can.

Having a year 8 son, I can tell you they change enormously from year 5 to year 8 :). Unfortunately the top "public schools" start their admissions process from year 5 when it is very difficult as a parent to look ahead and imagine their 13 year old being ready to go to a boarding school.

I hope you are able to look at Winchester / Eton / others with your son, talk to people with and about him, and see what both his reaction and your own is. And if somewhere like there feels right, work backwards from there to what you need to do over the next few years.

A few comments have been made about children having "normal" social relationships etc. I can assure you, if you and your interests are well outside the curve, you won't experience many "normal" interactions with your peer group until such time as you are in a situation that selects for your intellectual peer group - I'm not trying to be snobby here. I didn't ever feel comfortable that I fitted in with a group around me until olympiad training courses, and only started to master social skills at university. Eventually discovered in my 20s I was a "people person"!

I really hope the OPs son can have a chance at finding a real peer group in his teens.

he maybe quite ordinary and I could be worrying for nothing.

Ah you know he's not quite ordinary

irvineoneohone I don't think your DCs maths ability should be the only reason for you to look at the various options available for secondary school. What suits one child may not suit another.

Have a look at all options, let your son sit the entrance exams and then make your choice based on the schools available to you that you think will best suit your DC.

I used to work with someone who saved like mad and then took on a massive mortgage to move to a "better" area with a "better" school. He later said it was the worst thing he ever did. At the "better" school he son was one of many, at the original school he was one of "the few" and got massive support and encouragement.

I have no idea if that would work for everyone.

Being one of the few has many pitfalls:

Not the right level of teaching as will teach to the majority ( esp if underfunded )
Peer group - may dumb self down to fit in
Depending on personality could make them arrogant

Malcolm Gladwell has written some interesting stuff about big fish small pond outcomes vs small fish big pond outcomes

irvine my youngest was at a similar sounding primary school. The lower achievers was very definitely where the effort was put in, although I have to admit I let that wash over me as she was happy at the school, we had a pretty five minute walk to get to it and I contented myself with the fact that she seemed highly likely to get into a good secondary school which was also very close by. That's what you don't appear to have, unfortunately. Would you be prepared to say what the state school and independent options are which would be feasible for you locally? I don't mean names obviously, just a description. I don't expect you have to worry too much about cost for independent schools if your DS is as strong in Maths and English as he seems to be, so I'm just wondering what sort of choice you have without moving (not an option if you want to keep the family harmonious) or boarding (not an option at least for now).

Taffeta I did say I didn't know if it would work the same for everyone but this boy went from a very high achieving 13 year old to a 16 year old with very disappointing GCSE results. At 13 he was talking about university and what he wanted to do but when he got to 18 he had some trouble with the police, had got into debt. He eventually joined up and did OK but his father always regretted that they moved him. Who knows if he would have done better at the original school but I don't think the "best" schools always work out for everyone.

I still went for the school I considered best in my area, it was considered 2nd best by many but I never regretted my choice. I definitely didn't want the failing school. The trouble is we never know what might have been.

I've seen the same expense bitterly regretted with families sending their DSs to boarding school - two drug related related expulsions spring to mind without even the compensation of decent GCSEs, just ones which would have been at the very low end of the scale at the local comp.

I'm not sure it's worth it but you could get an assessment of you wanted to find out whether he is top 25% /10%/1%/0.1% or whatever. I think Mensa do them for not very much money.

I fully understand why you want his maths learning directed by someone who preferably knows maths and knows how to teach. That's not really asking too much but it will challenge many state schools who have other priorities (and frankly, interests). You don't want a school that teaches to the test, and that's most of them.

Have you tried him on the UKMT junior and intermediate challenges? There are some sample questions and solutions on the website. If he can do all enough to get even a bronze on the junior challenge when he's only in year 5, then you'll know that he's extremely good. Any award on the intermediate (which is intended for years 9-11), will mean he has really something special. At any rate, it will give him something to enjoy.

There must be an online community for gifted mathematicians somewhere. Something where Op's DS can exchange ideas and OP can ask for advice.

If he can do all enough to get even a bronze on the junior challenge when he's only in year 5, then you'll know that he's extremely good

Ds2's prep get quite a few bronze (and some silver) medals in the UKMT Junior Maths Challenge in Year 5 on one practice paper - but yes, the UKMT website/resources would be very useful to gauge his ability.

DC's prep sends boys to private schools such as Hampton, RGS Guildford and KCS Wimbledon - all unfortunately in Surrey/South West London but this tier of private school should be able to cater for him?
hamptonschool.org.uk/academic/departments/maths/
www.rgs-guildford.co.uk/news/2015-01-14/Oxbridge-Success

From your description of him, it’s possible he’d get a bursary even if he didn’t do any prep. I would suggest though that you show him the exam format in advance so he’s familiar with how the booklets will look. And do go to taster days. This will show him that it’s a School just like any other.

Have you looked at the admissions policies for state schools 30-45 mins away by bus/train? Do any of the schools have academic banding tests or aptitude tests for music, languages, art, technology etc. where catchment distance is less important? Where do the catholic dc in your area go? Is there a faith school with aptitude places for non-catholics/non-church goers? Even a language aptitude test seems to be based more on logic and memory, not actual language ability.

I've seen the same expense bitterly regretted with families sending their DSs to boarding school

That depends on the school and the child. Like everything else with the school system, things are VERY different from one school to another. My son goes to a state school which has a small number of boarders (1/6th of the intake), and he often says he wishes he could board too as his boarding class mates love it.

Obviously it will depend on the school and the child.... But both sets of parents in my example went into the process with the utmost faith in their decision. Sometimes things don't work out as expected. Clearly the drift of day pupils is easier to gauge than that of boarders.

Thank you everyone. Especially OnceWasGoodAtMaths and AalyaSecura. I really appreciate both of you. Thank you.

We have tried UKMT questions in the past(2 years ago?), but he never got interested, but he is older now so I will let him have a go.

Tbh, he must have so many gaps in his knowledge. Apart from khan, he regularly use ixl, he can happily do some yr13 work while he can get stuck with some yr10 work. That's another reason why I really want proper teacher who can guide him to the right direction. His maths learning is not structured at all.

As some of posters have said up thread, his talent is very skewed and may not be good enough for the all rounder high achieving schools.
From reading this thread, I did wonder about his ability( I was actually being honest, noble), he may not be as good as I thought and I maybe delusional. I really don't know, since I can't evaluate him myself.

nrich.maths.org/

Would the above website be of interest to your DS?

A good maths tutor would assess him. When we moved to this area I kept getting told my kids "must" have tutoring for 11 plus. I didn't think so but eventually my colleague persuaded me to let her sons tutor assess my daughter. I paid for one hour and she told me I was wasting my money as my child didn't need tutoring. I felt stupid that I had listened to everyone else but it might be worth it for you to find out.

Thank you Lauren. We have been using nrich from lots of recommendation from teachers including Noble for last few years.
That's the best thing that happened to my ds through help on MN tbh, to do something he needs to think, instead of just applying formulae.

There are 7+ months to grammar/state selection test and 1 year to private/boarding selection test, with your help he wont have any issue to get in Irvine. If you strongly dont want him to go to the nearest comp then try for any grammar school allowed(within catchment or no catchment), apply to boardings/private. You dont have to make decision at all until march next year. Your posts sound sad while it shouldnt. He loves learning and self study and could teach himself then these tests are nothing. He sounds a rounded boy to me and loves learning, he will love to be surrounded by similar peers. Dillusion or not it isnt important, even if he isnt 0.001% whatever, he has nothing to loose.

Thanks, Green, it's so good to hear from you.

irvine since you are already paying for martial arts and instrument lessons could you add in some online maths tutoring say once a month to have some maths mentoring?
Do not worry about pretests for Eton and Winchester, they do not require any preparation, they are assessing aptitude not learnt material. These tests would also be a way of getting an expert assessment of him to help guide you for the future. If those schools are too far look for others which have similar IQ type pretests. If he is refusing to contemplate any other school than his local comprehensive then adding in some online tutoring may be your best option.

UKMT questions don't usually require much taught techniques. Usually nothing more than Pythagoras and knowing that the angles within a triangle add up to 180. However, they make you think. The first few are easy but the last 10 are not.
I think they would be a good way of developing your DS's maths skills. There's also a good selection of books on their website apparently.

None of this is a substitution for a suitable school, of course, but it will help your DS develop.

Thank both.

mmzz, yes, he has tried first few question on junior challenge few years ago and and got it right., but left it there thinking trying it again in few years and forgot about it.
2 years ago I was more interested in figuring out his ability to prove to school that he needs extension work, but it was a very futile attempt, so, I just left him to it . I will let him try one of papers this weekend. Also Parallel(introduced by Noble) has started again so he will have exciting weekend.

Thank you both!