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Secondary education

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Original poster

Further maths? Comp and grammar

141 replies

Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:05

DT1 and DT2 are same ability. One has just started grammar, one comp. DT1 did not do as well as expected and it's been a hard year for them Sad

They both scored 120 in Maths SATs. It's their favourite subject (their other SATs scored similarly highly but they love maths in particular).

I do wonder if there will be a gap by KS4 and whether that will widen a little each year (based on comparitive GCSE results)

DS2's grammar have chance to study further Maths (i think) and additional GCSEs, where DT1's school offers 9 GCSEs but no further maths.

I dont know much about the qualification and whether it will still be running when they take GCSEs, but is there anything I can do to keep things as 'equal' as possible?

The obvious answer would be same school. However DS1 had his heart set on grammar and it was only his push and confidence that separated the pair on the day.

I feel guilty that DT2 may get more opportunities and progress further when they are equally able. The chance to take more GCSEs and a broader mix/advanced maths.

OP posts:
Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:07

Sorry DT2 had heart set on grammar.... he is more confident

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ScottishProf · 09/09/2017 11:16

How similar is their handwriting? Very tempting to have them swap homework - but no, I'm not seriously suggesting that before anyone jumps on me.

Seriously, don't assume the grammar will be better - it may or may not, and much depends on the individual teacher. There will be bound to be some differences in how things are approached, though, so the challenge is to turn that into a plus.

What you could definitely do is set up a routine for comparing what they've done in maths, with a bit of each doing a representative question from the other's homework and with each explaining anything the other hasn't met yet. That'll be good for them both.

If maths is something they're both keen on, you should also encourage recreational problem solving - nrich, ukmt, local math circle, whatever. That's more important than what syllabuses the schools do, in the end.

Copperbeech33 · 09/09/2017 11:20

comprehensives offer the same education as grammar, there should be no difference in outcomes, same ability and same home life. Of course there already is a difference in attitude, so any difference in outcome will come down to that

Why do you want to keep them equal? That sounds like it is more for you than for them. They are different people, and will have different strengths and weaknesses, interests and motivations, and different ambitions

The idea of wanting twins to go to the same school is a bit selfish, really

PineappleScrunchie · 09/09/2017 11:25

They clearly don't offer the "same" education if one offers further maths and the other doesn't.

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:29

Thanks ScottishProf. I did consider swapping homework.

The extra curricular stuff is a great idea too. I was thinking of a trip to Bletchley Park soon.

But if - in a galaxy far far away - they both wanted to study maths at a RG uni then would extra GCSEs and further maths be viewed more favourably?

I have indeed made sone sweeping assumptions. Some of it in panic that DT1 has been placed in top set for Maths and said he was the only one in class to know the answers to two questions posed (only volunteered because I grilled him - hes v unassuming). Previously at primary he would be say top 5 but by no means know 'it all'. I worry that what if he's not challenged but DT2 is?

Early days I know but I want to try to keep up the standards achieved at primary and make sure they remain similar results. Of course children change and so many other factors come into play. But I guess being twins I have an (almost) direct comparison.

I hope I don't sound arrogant. We've been on a crazy journey this year and we are so grateful to be at this comp after the council removed the place in June! I have been forced to think hard about grammars and comps and it has been quite divisive in our case.

But I really want to make this work - despite only being ine week in!

OP posts:
Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:33

Some of wanting them together is indeed selfish on my part.

Some of it has been tgeir sadness. They were in a three form primary and not in same class, but they are close (non id)

I want them to pursue their own interesrs but all I know is end of KS2 there's nothing in it. It's always been this way because they received the same education.

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TheColonelAdoresPuffins · 09/09/2017 11:35

Is it a fully grammar area that takes say the top 20%+ or is the grammar super selective and only takes a very small %?

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:50

It's a super selective in West Mids - takes about ten percent

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Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 12:01

I dont fully get why you think their will be a significant difference (assuming they have equal ability). You could just as easily imagine DT in comp does better because he wont be stretched across as many subjects as grammar DT. And with the new harder maths GCSE I wouldn't be surprised if wasn't available much longer and even if it is I am not sure if its an advantage.

It will come down to who gets the best teachers.

Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 12:03

Sorry
And with the new harder maths GCSE I wouldn't be surprised if Further Maths wasn't available much longer

Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 12:06

PS my DS at comp did extra GCSEs (Maths+Languages) as an extra curricular activity. Have you thought of that if your worried.

Tinty · 09/09/2017 12:13

Ok so this must be really hard for you and DT2 but he needs to work hard, no reason why he and his brother can't look at the work DT1 is doing at the Grammar and compare and maybe DT1 help DT2 if the comp isn't up to the same standard. Another point can DT2 take the 12+ in year 7 with a view to joining in year 8. My daughter's grammar had 2 children join at the end of year 7. It is a SS grammar and nobody left they just let 2 more join. It is worth asking. We assumed wrongly that there would only be places if someone left.

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 12:35

Thanks for your encouraging replies they have put my mind at rest a bit. I guess I thought the difference is the extra GCSE options and further maths but sounds like it could all change again.

Funninly enough my brother went to the same comp and went on to study Physics at a Redbrick. Im sure we could only take a set no of GCSEs when I took them in ye olde days of 1989.

TT - the grammar only offers entry at years 7 and 12. I think around 1400 sat for 150 places and w/list massive.

Not sure I would move DT2 and put him through it all. He seems to like his new school - DT at grammar is finding it harder to settle as they both went up without knowing anybody.

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Kazzyhoward · 09/09/2017 14:35

It will come down to who gets the best teachers.

And other factors such as classroom disruption, bullying, etc.

ScottishProf · 09/09/2017 14:50

Honestly, if they want to do maths at an RG university then GCSE qualifications are neither here nor there, in the sense that they shouldn't be where the kids are looking for challenge. Many schools require or recommend top marks at GCSE to consider doing A level maths at all, and then yours are looking to get top marks at A level. You can't rely on GCSE teaching - even at the grammar - to provide an appropriate level of challenge for budding mathematicians. Teach them to work hard and find their own challenging problems, and to treat the GCSE stuff as a floor, not a ceiling.

Jennypug · 09/09/2017 14:58

I have an undergrad degree and masters in maths from an RG university. I went to my local comp, no further maths at GCSE. I took maths plus 2 sciences at A level and had no problems attaining my place or achieving good results throughout my studies.

balinesecat · 09/09/2017 15:28

The opportunity to start doing A-Level Mathematics early is far more important than the ability to take Further Maths GCSE. Some comprehensives will offer this if asked carefully (in my experience, if the teachers like your kid they'll find a way).

GHGN · 09/09/2017 17:31

Let's say the grammar has 4 sets for Maths. Assuming The student joins from a different county where it is truly comprehensive there and he/she is in top set there. Normally the student can't be compared to set 1 in the grammar. At the very best the student could be compared to the middle of set 2 in the grammar. There are always exceptional cases and people could always talk about someone they know or themselves but mostly it is just some special cases. There is always something different. It is difficult to quantify but mostly the way the student from a comp write/do Maths in a manner that I would find messy, unclear, unstructured. The thinking tends to be less logical and don't normally find it easy to follow a long multi steps solutions. Maybe it is the way they were taught. Hopefully the new GCSE would change that.

But it is just my own experience anyway :)

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 10/09/2017 08:03

Thanks for the advice. I'm lucky at the moment that they both love to learn (of course this may change).

Interesting advice on starting A Level maths early, I'm afraid I never explored this at the open evening.

I guess UCAS also look for extra curricular enrichment and both the comp and grammar offer lots of opportunities to enjoy those activities.

Thanks for your help.

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errorofjudgement · 10/09/2017 09:36

Not all schools will offer the chance to start A level maths early. At the comp my DSs attended it certainly wasn't an option - not that that hindered either achieving top grades at GCSE and A level in maths and sciences.
Oh and non early teaching of A level was nothing to do with how well the teachers liked a student! Hmm

DumbledoresApprentice · 10/09/2017 10:24

I know of comps with better progress scores for high attainment students than nearby selective schools. I really wouldn't worry about it now. Thetes a good chance they will both get equally good opportunities even if their experiences might be slightly different.

DumbledoresApprentice · 10/09/2017 10:24

There's

noblegiraffe · 10/09/2017 10:36

Dear god don't start A-level maths early, it's a terrible idea that on average leads to worse results and resits and in general leads to problems with options and sixth form funding (this would especially be a problem with the new linear A levels).

There are other options for extending bright mathematicians - hopefully both schools will enter them for the maths challenges.

If one DS is doing Further Maths GCSE (this is being revamped for next year, not sure what it will be like in 5 year's time) then the other could also work through it and be entered as a private candidate?

balinesecat · 10/09/2017 11:09

I agree sitting the exams early does result in poorer results and resits, but studying the material doesn't require you to sit the exams early - I'd recommend doing them in sixth form but maybe in Year 12 rather than earlier. For those who excel at maths and are quickly 'bored' of GCSE Maths, I find it a good option. If one intends to do Mathematics at university, Further Maths A-Level is typically a requirement. Doing Maths A-Level early allows more time to study for Further Maths A-Level during sixth form as well as the additional papers (e.g. STEP) that some universities require.

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 10/09/2017 11:21

Your son not at the grammar school might also not be expected to gain such high grades due to fair access. It is not all cut and dried. He might also be able to move for sixth form.