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Original poster

Further maths? Comp and grammar

141 replies

Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:05

DT1 and DT2 are same ability. One has just started grammar, one comp. DT1 did not do as well as expected and it's been a hard year for them Sad

They both scored 120 in Maths SATs. It's their favourite subject (their other SATs scored similarly highly but they love maths in particular).

I do wonder if there will be a gap by KS4 and whether that will widen a little each year (based on comparitive GCSE results)

DS2's grammar have chance to study further Maths (i think) and additional GCSEs, where DT1's school offers 9 GCSEs but no further maths.

I dont know much about the qualification and whether it will still be running when they take GCSEs, but is there anything I can do to keep things as 'equal' as possible?

The obvious answer would be same school. However DS1 had his heart set on grammar and it was only his push and confidence that separated the pair on the day.

I feel guilty that DT2 may get more opportunities and progress further when they are equally able. The chance to take more GCSEs and a broader mix/advanced maths.

OP posts:
jjbutt · 13/09/2017 15:22

What are you going to say in 10,20 years time when he asks you why you denied him the opportunity of a GS education?
If he doesn't like it, it is always easier to swap from grammar to comp than the other way round.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 15:24

"What are you going to say in 10,20 years time when he asks you why you denied him the opportunity of a GS education?"

Why do you think he might ask that in 10 or 20 years time?

jjbutt · 13/09/2017 15:47

because 20 and 30 somethings like to blame everything that is wrong in their lives on their parents- and in this case they would probably be right to do so.
Why did he it the 11+ if he didn't want to go.You surely are not going to let a few days at this comp sway you? that would be irresponsible!

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 15:59

Why would there be anything wrong with his life because he didn' go to grammar school?

MumTryingHerBest · 13/09/2017 16:59

Middleoftheroad But there's that nagging doubt about the academic side. A GCSE difference of 61 per cent vs 91 per cent...

Are you sure those % are correct OP? Perhaps it might be worth checking here:

www.gov.uk/school-performance-tables

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 17:10

91% is pretty crap for a grammar school....

MumTryingHerBest · 13/09/2017 17:18

BertrandRussell given this one has 92% and is RI, I have to agree:

www.compare-school performance.service.gov.uk/school/136780

quaqua · 13/09/2017 17:18

Is that 91% A-C?
I agree that's crap for a grammar.

MumTryingHerBest · 13/09/2017 17:19

Sorry, broken link. Here it is again:

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136780

ChocolateWombat · 13/09/2017 17:35

It is odd that a Grammar doesn't get 100% 5 -C or very close to it, but actually those figures aren't the ones that are really relevant to Grammar ability kids.
Grammars are interested in the % getting A\A. I would see if you can get that comparison between the 2 schools, because those are the grades Grmmar ability kids are aiming for. What sort of % are getting those grades in the Comp? - it indicates if there is a decent sized cohort of the top ability and if the school is getting them to similar grades to the Grammar.

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 13/09/2017 17:55

Sorry - it's 98 per cent!

I'm still mulling it over. Saw the school - can't fault it. Did the journey (would be a pita)

Then I saw my smiley carefree son walking home from school with his friend. He enjoyed maths today and learnt something new about decimals and the teacher helped him when he got something wrong Smile

Dammit!

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 18:15

How do high achievers do at the comprehensive?

C8H10N4O2 · 13/09/2017 19:20

because 20 and 30 somethings like to blame everything that is wrong in their lives on their parents- and in this case they would probably be right to do so

What a sweeping generalisation. My 20somethings and their peers from the local 'only a comp' don't do this and its not because their lives are trouble free. Some of their peers who went to the grammars/private are the most entitled kids I know. I'm sure MV.

Why did he it the 11+ if he didn't want to go.You surely are not going to let a few days at this comp sway you? that would be irresponsible!

Yes, so much better to push the less confident child into a environment which is geared up for the super confident. Hmm

The more sensible question to ask is what are the future options at the comp - in five years time Further Maths may be available, there will be 6th form college options or DS1 may not even want to do Maths.

OP: I chose the local comp over places they were offered at grammars/elsewhere. People told me i was a bad mother, I should be ashamed, my children would never forgive me etc. I lost a lot of sleep over it as I began to doubt myself.

They are all now in their 20s, did extremely well academically and are in good professions. But most of all they were happy and made local friends, enjoyed local activities etc. This was particularly notable for my eldest who at 11 was youngest in his year, a bit nerdy and not a natural socialite. At 26 he has more friends than I can count, many made at that school, has worked abroad in two different countries long term and makes a shameful (for his age) amount of money.

This was an all abilities comp with slightly above average percentage FSM. Don't let people tell that that grammars are better because they are grammars - it simply isn't true. Few children do well though if they are not happy at school.

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 13/09/2017 20:45

@Bertrand I believe that 94 percent of the 68 high ability kids (its a 240 yr group) got A*-C which sounds encouraging to me

C8 well done to your DC - that story gives me much food for thought so thanks

We tried for grammar because his equal ability twin really wanted to go. He wanted to folliw suit even though we gave him all options.

Our catchment comp was sadly very poor in all areas. When we knew DT2's score would secure him a place (DT1 very borderline - he then didnt get in) we moved to be nearer the GS (we were previously 7 miles away) - this comp was also in catchment and meant both could access good schools easily.

In the meantime DT1 felt pretty low about leaving his brother and friends but was cheered up no end to be attending a comp where my brother had gone on to studying Physics at a RG uni and tgen great job.

A lot changed between sitting the 11 plus and the point we are at today.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 13/09/2017 20:59

Then leave well alone is my view.......

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2017 21:01

But if you're looking at high ability kids of the ilk that gets 120 on maths SATs, then you're not going to be interested in the A-C, you're going to be interested in the A/A, and stuff like triple science and further maths, surely?

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 13/09/2017 21:13

And that's the dillemma. A high ability boy but one who seems to be at home in a less pressured environment.

I'm just stumped because the heart and head are conflicting.

I know I must sound like I've come full circle on this one, but my DT's response and love of the comp life has left me questioning what is best for him....

OP posts:
C8H10N4O2 · 13/09/2017 22:08

I tend to agree with Bert on leaving well alone for now.

My DC had 'advantageous home' (interested parents, financially stable, books/cultural activities etc) but it sounds like your boys do as well.

As they became adults some of those soft items like the local friends, access to more activities, wide range of experiences showed their value even more than I'd expected. Its easy to focus on the exams so much that we undervalue these soft items.

When I went to see the academic grammar with the eldest I was struck by two things. Academically at 11 he would fit. If at 14 he turned out to be an early developing good average they had nothing to offer him. Plus it would mean a long commute both ways (with instruments!) and any friends made would be equally distant and possibly in the opposite direction.

To be honest, I went to see that school because people said I should (he was high scorer in primary) and I wanted to test my own assumptions. In this case though it was pretty much what I expected.

ChocolateWombat · 14/09/2017 07:44

I'd also be a little concerned that only 1/4 of the intake are high ability.
The school may well be doing very well for its middle ability majority, but is it getting the more able to A/A*? If you can't find that data, do ask the Comp for it. You can tell them about your offer and dilemma. They will want to keep your son so need to make a good case for being able to provide for his abilities.

This said, I'm sure it's right that you are thinking of your individual son and what is best for him, not just him as part of twin pairing now. It might be that what is best for one isn't for the other. However, he has passed the exam and been offered a place. I really don't think you need to worry about him coping with the work. It also isn't always true that Grammars are more pressurised - do you have evidence that is the case in this particular grammar?

I can see that the Grammar was the alternative to your original crap Comp, but now you have the good comp option, the gRammara isn't quite so essential. The question is if the Comp serves the high abilities well.

How long do you have to choose?

BertrandRussell · 14/09/2017 08:07

But in wholly selective areas, grammars take around the top 25%ish. Surely a quarter high ability is how it should be in a comprehensive?

BertrandRussell · 14/09/2017 08:09

But yes, check the number of A*s and As. Remembering all the time that all bets are off with the new GCSEs

crazycrofter · 14/09/2017 08:15

I know the grammar in question well and our area isn't wholly selective. The grammars are super selective so generally most children go to comprehensives. The number of high achievers sounds about typical for the borough the school is located in. My daughter went to primary in that area and around a quarter of kids getting level 5 or above sounds right to me - nothing to do with children going to grammar, as it will only be one or two children per primary at the most. This particular grammar isnt known to be pressurised. The OP'a dilemma is more to do with travel as this second grammar is a long bus ride compared to local comp.

Traalaa · 14/09/2017 08:33

You probably have already, but if not have a look at his current school's website for recent GCSE results. My DS's comp website has a bit of a breakdown on different subjects and also a bit on the number of kids with high (or all) A*, 9's, A's. That might reassure you.

Tinty · 14/09/2017 11:45

My DD travels 40 mins to school, some of her friends travel for an hour they all love the bus travel and have great fun on the journey, I wouldn't worry about the time, I would worry about no triple science and further maths.

My DS went to the local comp which does triple science and Further maths. He took triple science at GCSE and did very well. He then decided to do a Science btech at college and got the highest results you can get. He had a friend who went to the same comp and only did double, he also did the Science btech and got nearly as good results, but my DS had to help him all year with the content that he hadn't studied at GCSE. It makes a difference. They are both off to Uni now, my DS got a bursery for his top results, no doubt helped by doing the triple science at GCSE.

Another point is why is a comp with 25% high achievers not offering triple science and further maths?

Also how many GCSE's do they take? What will he take instead of TS and FM? Do they offer computer science, business studies, or psychology, sociology, electronics etc? The comp my DS went to offered all of these plus Btech's in animal care, childcare and mechanics. This is an outstanding comp they catered for everyone. It may be an outstanding comp your DS is attending but it seems it is outstanding because it pulls up the lower and middle achievers are they really offering enough for the high achievers?

Sorry for the essay but one last point, is your DS really a high achieving boy who is at home in a lower pressured environment or is it just the knock of not getting the GS place first time as his DTwin did? Maybe he needs his confidence brought back up by going to the GS. There was probably half a point between him and the last boy to get in first round. There is probably also only a few points between the top of the GS list and the bottom. I understand that you had to talk the comp up when that was where he had to go, but you would you have even considered the comp if he had got a GS place immediately, or to put it another way at any point did you think well I will just put both DT's in the comp?

BertrandRussell · 14/09/2017 12:42

"Another point is why is a comp with 25% high achievers not offering triple science and further maths?"

Funding, probably.