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Secondary education

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Original poster

Further maths? Comp and grammar

141 replies

Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:05

DT1 and DT2 are same ability. One has just started grammar, one comp. DT1 did not do as well as expected and it's been a hard year for them Sad

They both scored 120 in Maths SATs. It's their favourite subject (their other SATs scored similarly highly but they love maths in particular).

I do wonder if there will be a gap by KS4 and whether that will widen a little each year (based on comparitive GCSE results)

DS2's grammar have chance to study further Maths (i think) and additional GCSEs, where DT1's school offers 9 GCSEs but no further maths.

I dont know much about the qualification and whether it will still be running when they take GCSEs, but is there anything I can do to keep things as 'equal' as possible?

The obvious answer would be same school. However DS1 had his heart set on grammar and it was only his push and confidence that separated the pair on the day.

I feel guilty that DT2 may get more opportunities and progress further when they are equally able. The chance to take more GCSEs and a broader mix/advanced maths.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 10/09/2017 11:25

Further Maths GCSE/Addditional Maths is A-level content, with some extra stuff thrown in, so you study and get a qualification.

Some schools do maths A-level in Y12 and Further in Y13, most do both as two year courses, arranging the modules so that they finish Maths study early and still have time for STEP. Sitting an A-level early is problematic for those universities that require all qualifications to be taken in one sitting, it's also problematic for funding in Y13 if a student is only left with 2 subjects (yes FM is normally a 4th, but not always).

LooseAtTheSeams · 10/09/2017 19:15

The additional maths thing is interesting. RG unis won't fuss if the school doesn't offer it by the way! Same for further maths A level - it might be an issue if it was available and you didn't take it. Cambridge, for example, has its own entry test, so takes this into account.
I thought DS1 wasn't going to do additional now the gcse spec has changed and with the funding cuts, but there seems to have been a change of heart at his comprehensive school. He says set 1 are going to do the additional maths after all. He's delighted, strange boy! Then again he wants to do maths A level and he knows this is a big help.

user7214743615 · 10/09/2017 19:57

The opportunity to start doing A-Level Mathematics early is far more important than the ability to take Further Maths GCSE. Some comprehensives will offer this if asked carefully.

Before asking for this, please check with universities and find out that no university actually wants you to do this.

balinesecat · 10/09/2017 20:01

Depends on the university. When I did my maths degree, we had a 12-year-old taking lectures alongside us. We used to ask him to explain stuff we didn't get.

user7214743615 · 10/09/2017 20:09

No, it really doesn't depend on the university: please give me one example of a single university that encourages year 10 and 11 students to start A level maths early, while not taking other A level subjects early.

Encouraging early entry for A levels is not the same thing as deciding whether to take students who have done so.

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 10/09/2017 20:11

Thanks - feels like a minefield, but hopefully we have time to see. The boys may end up changing completely -one of my nephews loved maths but opted for a Business Studies degree later on.

Noble - it had crossed my mind that there might be an option to enter privately.

Lots to ponder thanks.

OP posts:
underneaththeash · 10/09/2017 22:11

Is DT1 not going to sit 12+ next week, they may have a place at grammar next year?

If not, I think comprehensive school are a lot better at differentiating work now than they were when we were at school (I went to a really awful comp, but have a decent A level in further Maths). If he gets decent GCSE results then he can hopefully transfer to a more academic school.

Original poster
Middleoftheroad · 10/09/2017 23:07

Underneath we dont have a 12 plus round here.

It's entry at yr 7 or 12 for his twin's grammar or add your name to w/list at another and if a place came up everybody on list sits a test for that coveted slot.

OP posts:
Fresh8008 · 11/09/2017 01:27

RG unis won't fuss if the school doesn't offer it by the way! Same for further maths A level

No, Cambridge are making Further Maths a compulsory requirement. Pretty sure it others will follow.

Traalaa · 11/09/2017 08:08

It must be tricky having twins at separate schools, but if they're year 7 and only just started, I'd say just relax. Enjoy the differences for now. Things will change as they progress and they'll change too. All that matters for now is that they're both happy and feel excited by their new schools. I hope they are!

senua · 11/09/2017 08:21

No, Cambridge are making Further Maths a compulsory requirement. Pretty sure it others will follow.

Link, please. Why do Admissions need FM when they have STEP results to look at?

BertrandRussell · 11/09/2017 08:54

"No, Cambridge are making Further Maths a compulsory requirement. Pretty sure it others will follow"

If they are going to do this it is shockingly discriminatory.

Fresh8008 · 11/09/2017 08:55

Computer Science with Mathematics as well

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 08:59

Senua it would be very difficult to get a good grade in STEP 3 without doing further maths at that is what the content is based on.

The only reason Cambridge hadn't made FM compulsory was that not all schools offer it. I suspect that is down to funding and the shortage in maths teachers who are actually mathematicians.

I'm so glad we have the people who know their stuff countering the dodgy advice to encourage students to take maths A level early. I'd in general see that as a poor school with no imagination who didn't understand the impact that would have on their students chances.

Seeline · 11/09/2017 09:03

Maybe a slightly different approach, but I have 2 DCs at different secondaries (both at single sex), although 2 years apart. I have learnt that schools do things differently - the approach isn't 'wrong' just different. I have learnt to stop comparing, but try to encourage both DCs to make the most of the opportunities offered at their own school. You may find that your DTs start to develop as individuals and find their own roads to travel (not meant as a criticism at all - just can't word it better!!)

irregularegular · 11/09/2017 09:06

Regarding the specific point regarding Further Maths GCSE - it isn't necessarily particularly valuable. My daughter's school is one of the top 10 state schools in the county for GCSE results. 70% of the girls go on to do A-level Maths. They don't offer Further Maths GSCE. I asked why, and they said they preferred to offer depth in Maths in their own way, rather than the breadth of the Further Maths GCSE syllabus.

No idea whether that is "right" or not, but it certainly indicates that it is not the be all and end all of a good academic school!

Fresh8008 · 11/09/2017 09:08

Imperial has already made A* in Further Maths compulsory for this years applications. I wonder is this going to be normal in maths now for all the good unis. But sorry didn't mean to derail.

titchy · 11/09/2017 09:16

Fresh

Imperial has not made A level FM compulsory at all, only for Maths degrees. Which is pretty expected.

This thread is about GCSE FM in any case.

senua · 11/09/2017 09:16

Thanks Fresh.

titchy · 11/09/2017 09:18

Ah ok thread moved on. Sorry. Blush Still think someone aiming for a Maths degree would be more than happy to do FM, and I'd have thought that was accessible to all, even if it means moving at sixth form.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 09:18

I suspect Fresh was talking about maths degrees.

FMSP has some info about some unis that require or encourage FM for their maths degrees.

user7214743615 · 11/09/2017 09:18

I wonder is this going to be normal in maths now for all the good unis.

Defining "good" universities as top 20, no, this can't possibly be normal because there simply wouldn't be enough students applying with further maths A level. Only the top few universities can really insist on further maths. And for them to actually insist on it is controversial, since not all sixth forms/schools can offer further maths.

AAB with an A in maths would get you into many "good" Russell Group maths courses in Clearing. Up to a half of Maths students at such courses won't come in with Further Maths.

user7214743615 · 11/09/2017 09:20

Kitten: the information on the FM page you link to is incomplete.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 09:22

Unfortunately not all schools offer FM and there is concern that now there are increased funding restrictions that mean many students are only allowed to take three a levels. It takes a leap of faith to only take maths, fm +1 other when they can't even test the water with a FM AS level.