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Secondary education

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Original poster

Further maths? Comp and grammar

141 replies

Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:05

DT1 and DT2 are same ability. One has just started grammar, one comp. DT1 did not do as well as expected and it's been a hard year for them Sad

They both scored 120 in Maths SATs. It's their favourite subject (their other SATs scored similarly highly but they love maths in particular).

I do wonder if there will be a gap by KS4 and whether that will widen a little each year (based on comparitive GCSE results)

DS2's grammar have chance to study further Maths (i think) and additional GCSEs, where DT1's school offers 9 GCSEs but no further maths.

I dont know much about the qualification and whether it will still be running when they take GCSEs, but is there anything I can do to keep things as 'equal' as possible?

The obvious answer would be same school. However DS1 had his heart set on grammar and it was only his push and confidence that separated the pair on the day.

I feel guilty that DT2 may get more opportunities and progress further when they are equally able. The chance to take more GCSEs and a broader mix/advanced maths.

OP posts:
OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 09:24

very much so user. It's also out of date in terms of Warwicks offer. But it gives a general feel and whilst I'm procrastinating enough to spend time on this thread rather than working, I'm not procrastinating to the point of trawling lots of maths department webpages for entry requirements Grin

user7214743615 · 11/09/2017 09:26

Senua it would be very difficult to get a good grade in STEP 3 without doing further maths at that is what the content is based on.

It is true that most Cambridge maths offers are based on STEP 2 and STEP 3, with the latter depending on FM content.

A very small number of offers - particularly to students from outside the UK - might not depend on STEP 3 as the students involved have not covered the UK FM syllabus. Such offers are typically for students who have demonstrated strong ability in interview/through Olympiad performance.

Fresh8008 · 11/09/2017 09:27

The question in this thread is surly about whether FM at GCSE is needed to be a good Mathematician at A-Level and by extension FM at A-Level as well.

I dunno, not DC not been through 6th form yet but I am hoping not as they are looking at a top Maths Uni and DC only at a comp. Got my fingers crossed the new Maths GCSE is up to the challenge on its own.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 09:35

Fresh, dd was 'only' at a comp too. She self studied the AQA further maths level 2. with agreement of school I don't think that's so needed now with the new gcse. It is much harder. However, if they are keen on maths, then yes FM could be a good option for them.

I'm not sure how you define a top university unless you are talking about COWI which is subjective anyway, Outside that tiny group there are lots of really good maths courses and it's better for your dc to choose for the course they like rather than the name they like.

BertrandRussell · 11/09/2017 09:46

I do wish people wouldn't say "only a comp" Sad

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 09:57

that's why I put it into inverted commas Bert. It does students a massive disservice.

Fresh8008 · 11/09/2017 10:10

I said 'only' to differentiate from a comp & a grammar, which this thread is comparing. But I can see as its a bit like using 'bog standard'.

I had the option to move into a catchment by house price school which gets best results in area. But I choose to go to a not so local 'average' comp. On the face of it not such good results but when you look at the detail it does better with high achievers. Especially in Maths Smile.

Its not perfect but very happy with my choice. It did offer FM at GCSE pre-changes, but not now, I just hope it still offers FM at A-Level by time DC gets there.

BertrandRussell · 11/09/2017 10:10

Sorry, OYBK- I know you did. I was talking about other posters.Smile

quaqua · 11/09/2017 10:20

My ds's secondary school doesn't offer FM A level - he has to do it online by himself.
The system is so unfair - students who already have the advantage of being in a grammar school have the added advantage of being taught a funded FM A level course.

noblegiraffe · 11/09/2017 10:25

The DfE have announced a 'level 3 support programme' will be launched soon, £16million to try to improve post-16 maths including all schools offering FM. So things may be very different in 5 years.

The suspicion is that they are going to wind up the further maths support network, which would be bonkers.

Thenorthbloodywellremembers · 11/09/2017 10:39

Interesting thread. I loved maths at school - favourite and best subject, and I did maths a level and further maths as level - at 'only a comp' so did the further maths with teacher at lunchtime, there were two of us. It didn't occur to me to do maths at uni though, I did humanities subjects, and lots of extracurricular stuff. Why not just wait and see what they fancy doing in a few years time? Their interests may change considerably.

quaqua · 11/09/2017 10:46

my ds is in Y11 so he's going to be accessing the FM network. Any tips for him noble giraffe?!

Singap0reSling · 11/09/2017 12:11

My DD has just started yr 10, we've been told that Further Maths GCSE is not available for her year (and below) even though they have offered it in the past, with a high uptake.

The impression the school gave is that the FM GCSE is being discontiued - is that right?

Or maybe I'm just getting a bit confused on this thread between the GCSE and A Level...?

TheColonelAdoresPuffins · 11/09/2017 12:31

Dd's comp offer further Maths A level but i can't see anything about further Maths gcse. Looked it up for my old grammar and again further Maths A level offered but nothing mentioned in the year 9 options section about Further Maths GCSE.

LooseAtTheSeams · 11/09/2017 13:28

You're right - the 2019 admissions for Cambridge maths and computing do require further maths. That's changed since my son went to an open day about computing so I'm very grateful my mistake was pointed out - especially as they won't be the only ones. The sixth forms we're looking at do offer it but I know quite a few don't.

LooseAtTheSeams · 11/09/2017 13:29

I don't think the gcse makes a difference, though?

user7214743615 · 11/09/2017 13:36

they won't be the only ones

Outside Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick, nobody else could insist on further maths without losing up to half their student cohort.

BertrandRussell · 11/09/2017 13:37

That has to be Further Maths A level, doesn't it?

That's at least only a bit discriminatory, not wildly, shout from the rooftops discriminatory....

Laniakea · 11/09/2017 13:39

dd's comp have always done further maths (the one with the A^ as a top grade) with GCSEs & also do further maths A level. However from next year they are doing maths AS in year 11 rather than the further maths.

They don't do any AS levels in 6th form now.

LooseAtTheSeams · 11/09/2017 13:43

Had another look at the website - It's the maths degree at Cambridge and the Computer Science with mathematics that will require Further Maths at A level. I think if your school doesn't offer it you'll be studying it independently.
Computer Science on its own hasn't changed but its own computer apititude test.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/09/2017 13:59

If one intends to do Mathematics at university, Further Maths A-Level is typically a requirement. Doing Maths A-Level early allows more time to study for Further Maths A-Level during sixth form as well as the additional papers (e.g. STEP) that some universities require.

I thought universities preferred /required 3 a levels taken at the same time? Maybe they make an exception if a school does the maths in 12, fm in 13 thing. but many simply do them concurrently over 2 years, which works absolutely fine (and doing it that way means the modules can be to some extent grouped to maximise grades).

ErrolTheDragon · 11/09/2017 14:26

This is getting a long way OT, but Cambridge engineering, for most colleges 'wherever possible, A/AS Futher Maths is normally required, including M1 and M 2'
https://www.admissions.eng.cam.ac.uk/guide/table1

So, presumably allowing for the fact that its not possible for all candidates to take it, and may make exceptions for some that could have taken it.

And the reasons why the 'top' engineering, physics and maths degrees want people who've done FM is surely because they want people to know this stuff before they get there, not just have aptitude.

noblegiraffe · 11/09/2017 16:05

However from next year they are doing maths AS in year 11

😭 this is such an unbelievably terrible idea. Do they know that the AS grade, however terrible, will supersede GCSE grade in progress 8, so is not only bad mathematically but also risky for the school?

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 11/09/2017 16:10

Our comprehensive is stopping offering the FM maths iGCSE after this year, and many did last year when the new Maths levels 1-9 came in - reasoning I think that the new Math GCSE is harder and enough to contend with at year 11.

They are still offering FM A level though.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 16:25

Laniakea - not only what Noble says, but it is likely that if the students do Cambridge where at the moment at least they have to write down the minutiae of their maths AS result it's going to possibly be a big handicap for them. I know that's a very specific example that will only apply to a tiny number of students, but nevertheless why put them at a disadvantage?

And what if someone wants to take FM to AS only which is actually a really nice thing for someone who is looking at a reasonably maths-ish degree? Do they not get an opportunity?