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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Further maths? Comp and grammar

141 replies

Middleoftheroad · 09/09/2017 11:05

DT1 and DT2 are same ability. One has just started grammar, one comp. DT1 did not do as well as expected and it's been a hard year for them

They both scored 120 in Maths SATs. It's their favourite subject (their other SATs scored similarly highly but they love maths in particular).

I do wonder if there will be a gap by KS4 and whether that will widen a little each year (based on comparitive GCSE results)

DS2's grammar have chance to study further Maths (i think) and additional GCSEs, where DT1's school offers 9 GCSEs but no further maths.

I dont know much about the qualification and whether it will still be running when they take GCSEs, but is there anything I can do to keep things as 'equal' as possible?

The obvious answer would be same school. However DS1 had his heart set on grammar and it was only his push and confidence that separated the pair on the day.

I feel guilty that DT2 may get more opportunities and progress further when they are equally able. The chance to take more GCSEs and a broader mix/advanced maths.

OP posts:

Laniakea · 11/09/2017 17:08

I've misrepresented them I'm afraid, I went back to check it again & they aren't doing the AS in y11 .... "... students study for an AS level module during Key Stage Four ... giving them increased scope to study for an extra AS module in Further Mathematics if they wish to in the Sixth Form."

... sorry!

noblegiraffe · 11/09/2017 17:36

There aren't any modules any more

ErrolTheDragon · 11/09/2017 17:50

Oh... Are there options for stats and mechanics (and decision if thats still in the spec) or does everyone cover exactly the same now?

OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2017 18:22

All the same now Errol and Deciscion is gone.

user7214743615 · 11/09/2017 18:40

And the reasons why the 'top' engineering, physics and maths degrees want people who've done FM is surely because they want people to know this stuff before they get there, not just have aptitude.

Despite coming from a place that does insist on FM, I don't really buy this.

In the admissions procedures it is easier to compare students who have all done the same maths (maths and FM A level) but a small numbers of students are accepted who haven't covered all the FM topics (from doing IB or other international qualifications). It's not so hard to compare the latter with UK students coming through the standard route.

Now in terms of the students needing to know the FM material before they get there - FM material is covered in the first term of any of the other top 20 UK maths courses. It doesn't actually buy you that much more teaching time that the students come in knowing it.

noblegiraffe · 11/09/2017 18:41

No choice at all for A-level, everyone does stats and mechanics.

For Further there's a bit of choice, you sit two core papers, then two out of mechanics, stats, decision and additional pure. You can sit all 4 if you like and they maximise your grade from your two best but there's no swapping modules with A-level any more.

So what will the students be studying in Y11? A bit of A-level content? The further papers assume knowledge of A-level so they can't make an early start. And they can't sit anything because it's all linear!

Laniakea · 11/09/2017 19:20

I have absolutely no idea! I only looked because dd (now y12) said they weren't doing the further maths anymore. I thought it had been pretty successful, dd was the only one in her set not to do it last year.

Original poster

Middleoftheroad · 12/09/2017 18:29

Bollocks! DT1 has been offered a place today at gs.

It offers further maths and three separate sciences. I'm bloody stumped. Dont know what to do....

OP posts:

noblegiraffe · 12/09/2017 19:03

Oh bloody hell what bad timing. Two weeks ago you wouldn't have hesitated. Who wants to go through all that settling in again especially when he seems happy.

But it might be a case of short-term pain for long-term gain? He got 120 in the maths SATs, which is pretty bloody impressive. You said it had been a hard year when he was rejected. The term is still new enough that everyone is still finding their feet and he'd be with his brother.

ChocolateWombat · 12/09/2017 19:09

That's amazing. Is it the same Grammar as his brother?

I would go for it...I absolutely would. Yes, he's done a bit of settling g and this will be a bit hard for him.....but in the wider scheme of things, it's all nothing.
Absolutely go for it and know they will both have the same opportunities.

Well done to him and to all of you for getting to this point through all the struggles.He's in and he's earned his place like everyone else. Celebrate and seize it!

ChocolateWombat · 12/09/2017 19:14

And we are only a week into term in most schools....it is nothing. Starting now will be almost as good as a week ago. People barely know each other's names and he will never be 'the new boy' because no one will ever remember it's so soon.

Yes it would have been better if this came months ago and weeks ago, but now is still fantastic.

Beyond the first thought of 'he's done really well and seem happy and I've bought the bloody uniform' I can see nothing to stop you biting their hands off and starting him there in a couple of days time. Get the uniform and start again. How wonderful for your whole family.

Tinty · 12/09/2017 19:29

Bloody hell, bite their hands off. Or politely accept the place and then think about the fact that some other child will get his place at the comp and that will be nice for someone else. I think you were the poster that fought for his place at the comp after the grammar appeal failed, if you wanted the place at the comp so much, so will someone else. .

Original poster

Middleoftheroad · 12/09/2017 19:40

Here's the rub. It's a different grammar to his brother.

My gut tells me DS will want to stay at the comp. Why couldn't this have happened before they started? He started without any primary friends and seems to love it.

But there's that nagging doubt about the academic side. A GCSE difference of 61 per cent vs 91 per cent...

It's a lovely comp. Outstanding and you're right, we were desperate to go. Either way somebody will get a place. But dammit even a week ago my DT1 would not have started comp....

It's a great position to be in...but a real dillema. we need to go to the school asap.

OP posts:

noblegiraffe · 12/09/2017 19:47

A school with a GCSE pass rate of 61 percent is not going to have as many educational opportunities for a bright DC as one with 91%, as you can already see from the further maths and triple science. And this will bite as you will have a direct comparison with his brother, it won't be a case of what you don't know won't hurt you.

ChocolateWombat · 12/09/2017 20:25

Don't let the fact he's had a week, 5 days at a school alter your view.

What would you have chosen in March, in June, in July and 10 days ago? Whatever the answer was then, still stands, because the reasons you would have made that choice still stands and he is still the same boy and you are the same family.
Yes he's a boy who has had 5 days to get used to something and feels happy, but that's not a deciding factor to overrule all the other issues.

I can see that broaching this will be tricky and his reactions Unknown. However, I think you can relieve him if the burden to have to choose and remind him that you have got all of you through these months of struggle and he can trust you to do the same again. I think he sounds like a lad who will be able to understand that and know it's true in his heart, even if his first reaction is to not want it.

And it's about the whole family isn't it. It's about all of you going through Secondary together and being a twin where the sibling is at the same stage of education and avoiding comparisons if experience almost impossible. Best wishes....and I think you deserve a big glass of wine tonight to celebrate your sons achievement...because whatever you choose, this is an offer to celebrate.

CookieDoughKid · 12/09/2017 22:09

Go for the grammar and you can say to yourself you've given them equal opportunities. Or stay at the comp if you truly believe they will serve the top set just as well. Where do you think his potential will be most realised and where he will be stretched and challenged? Sounds like both great options but I'd inclined to offer three same for both regardless IMO.

HamNJam · 12/09/2017 23:13

What's the relationship between your twins like? Although academically level so far, are they competitive with each other? How do they compare themselves against their brother?

I ask those questions because my twins are incredibly competitive - but only against each other. I know that for them, they would have been distraught if their sister had got into a particular school and they didn't.

For good or for worse, my girls' self-confidence is complicated and related to their own performance as compared to their sister.

I have no other children, my girls have a generally very good relationship with each other but this would have been severely impacted if they had gone to different schools at age 11.

As it stands for you, given that DT1 is academically able and did want to go to a grammar school in the first place, then I would move him to your new offer grammar school. He will receive a more comparable education to his brother and will feel more on par in what he's learning and the cohort he will be learning with.

Take DT1 around the new school, affirm that it will be the better option.

HamNJam · 12/09/2017 23:13

Oh and good luck

Tinty · 13/09/2017 09:27

You started this thread because as much as DT1 was happy in the first week you were concerned about the lack of triple science and further maths, your son is being offered the opportunity to go to a school which provides these options. Also you said that DT1 was the twin who pushed to go to Grammar School in the first place. Don't worry about him missing the first week, he will fit in just as he did in the comp, he is a very resilient boy from what you have told us. Also one other thing to consider. Imagine if DT1 goes to the comp next week having decided not to go to the GS and finds that 1 or 2 of the boys he has made friends with aren't there, so he says Mr X where are Jim and John? and Mr X says they have left this school to go to the GS. Tell him to take the chance that has been offered. You can leave GS to go to a comp very rarely does it happen the other way around.

TheColonelAdoresPuffins · 13/09/2017 09:53

I would move him to the grammar and I say that as the mother of a bright child who is happy and doing well at a comp. We are in a fully comp area. One child in dd's year at primary school went to a faith comp further afield, one (average ability) child went private, everyone else went to a local comp. Dd's comp has a wide range of ability but she is one of many bright kids. Your area has at least two grammars which cream off the top ability and it sounds like your son might be a bit of an outlier in his top set Maths.

Traalaa · 13/09/2017 10:01

Blimey, that's not an easy choice! If he's happy at his new school though, I'd say there's a good case for letting him stick where he is. Okay so 61% isn't nearly as good as the Grammar, but your son's bright, so he'd easily be in that 61% and the Grammar should be shot if they don't get 91% as it's all about starting points. Obviously the comps have to build all ability levels to GCSE. The Grammar's have a massive head start on that front!

Why don't you have a look at his current school's recent GCSE grades- are there a fair few who get all high grades? That should show you if he'll have enough people working at his level/ to stretch him and challenge him. I'd bet there are. Then ask yourself if it's better for him to be a big fish academically there, or one of many in the grammar.

My son's at a comp that gets 66% five A-C's. He's top set, stretched, really enjoying being one of the clever ones and has genuinely really thrived there. His primary thought he had a good chance of getting a place at the only grammar near us, but we didn't even put him in for it. He's clever, but not extraordinary. I was similar and did go to a Grammar school where I honestly thought I was a bit dim as I was distinctly average. I didn't want that for him and we could see that there were more than enough v.bright kids at the comp near us, so just went for that. So far we've been proved right. Good luck though. I hope it works out for him.

Traalaa · 13/09/2017 10:02

TheColonel makes a good point - if you're in a fully Grammar area, I can see that a lot of the bright kids are creamed off. It's not like that by us as there's just one super selective Grammar, so v.few kids get in. I still think looking at current school's GCSE results closely will give you a few clues though!

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 13/09/2017 10:30

I think given the better choice of options, that SATs score and what you said about him being the only person in top set who knew the answer to those questions I'd be tempted to move him.

user1484655514 · 13/09/2017 12:11

does your grammer school have the 13+ this could give your son another chance at getting in the grammer

TheColonelAdoresPuffins · 13/09/2017 13:33

Something i didn't understand is that you said the grammars take the top 10% and that the grammar achieves 91% five A - Cs. So 9% of the top 10% didn't get five A -Cs?

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