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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

ASD in mainstream secondary

212 replies

Verbena37 · 19/09/2016 20:55

Hi,
DS yr 7 diagnosed HFASD last winter and has started at secondary two weeks ago.
On a positive note, I think he prefers having lots of new subjects to learn but from a pastoral side of things, I'm just not sure what to expect, and at what level, from staff.

I already met with the SENCo last term so they know his issues and needs yet since he started, and I realise it's only early days, I've been having to email school to point out issues that I would think staff would be more thoughtful about. Stuff like organising his time and not being able to remember noting down homework and not remembering to go to the loo before lessons start etc.

To the staff, I'm pretty sure they think me overprotective but for DS, who has had late night meltdowns for the past two weeks, it's not trivial but things that would enable him to feel less anxious.

Am I hoping for too much? I almost feel apologetic that I have to raise things with them.

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Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 14:53

when it comes to learning SEND you have to do it in order. You want to know the life threatening conditions first, anaphalaxis, cp, risk of suicide, etc, then you need to know any legal issues, xxx considered unsafe near girls, etc, then other serious dangers, epilepsy, brittle bone, sickle cell etc, then you move on to the other conditions, which, if you have 200-300 students, realistically it is unlikely that you will recognise these students by sight before half term. You might know their names, or at least have their names in your lesson plans for differentiated material

minifingerz · 05/10/2016 14:57

"You might know their names"

Sadly I think many staff will know my dc's name, because his behaviour is so challenging.

What they won't know is why.

:-(

He came back from school yesterday saying a child had shouted at him and called him an Aspergers arsehole. He fought with this boy, another child filmed it and posted it on instagram.

Ffs.

PickAChew · 05/10/2016 14:58

I'm pretty sure that tackling a hyperactive child to the ground isn't part of Team Teach training. That child's mother has a point.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 15:00

I'm pretty sure that tackling a hyperactive child to the ground isn't part of Team Teach training. That child's mother has a point.

What would you have done, he could have left the other child permanently wheelchair bound. Fortunately in this case the HT is backing the teacher 100%

Verbena37 · 05/10/2016 15:17

Oh gosh, I didn't mean for people to get upset and this to get so heated Sad.
I do post and chat in the SN Chat threads but I deliberately posted here for a mainstream view that would de mainstream secondary teachers....to get their view as well.

Not sure longlost that learning SEND in order would work quite like that. For example, ds has epilepsy, ASD and has at times threatened self harm. I'm pretty sure that would be case for many if not most of the SEND kids at mainstream school.

It's sad that there is not time for a bit of banter in classtime. TBH longlost having read your post about the sheer amount of time recording, planning etc, I'm now put right off teaching. I was considering a geography PGCE but thinking I will stick to TA after all.

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Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 15:20

This is an interesting thread. I am interested in getting the best education for everyone, but tbh, I just can't see how it can happen, in our current system. Too much is broken. I thank God my children are not in comprehensives ( one in grammar, one in special school) some classes and some schools are fine, but many I see are just hopeless ( is in totally without hope, not a bit hapless)

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 15:24

It's sad that there is not time for a bit of banter in classtime some do, some don't. A school I was in last week made a point of RECOMMENDING it during one staff meeting, whilst the closest neighbouring school bans it absolutely. All I'm saying is it is not necessarily down to the teacher. Even in a school which bans it, some teachers might, if they are supply, if they are near the end of their career, ( either through choice or other plans) if they don't rely on their salary to pay the mortgage.... other s might be too scared to, even if they want to.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 15:25

I mean through age, or other plans

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 15:31

For example, ds has epilepsy, ASD and has at times threatened self harm.

sounds like he would be quite a long way down the priorities, I'm afraid, most epilepsy isn't actually dangerous, and threatening to self harm is so common it simply wouldn't feature at all.

Verbena37 · 05/10/2016 15:45

Perhaps if more schools brought it back, there would be less need for pastoral intervention.

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Verbena37 · 05/10/2016 15:47

Also, where you mentioned up thread that teachers are there to teach, in my mind from a parent's point of view, first and foremost, they are there to care for my child and then teach them. If they were enabled by management/govt. to spend as much time caring as they taught, we would potentially have much beer behaved and more well rounded children.

Check out Finland and how they deal with education. I would move there tomorrow if I could!

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Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 15:51

Finland is often quoted as having an outstanding education system. it really doesn't. What is has is an outstanding work ethic, and parents who back up school discipline to the hilt

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 16:11

it also has a lot less pressures on teachers

Verbena37 · 05/10/2016 16:25

The Michael Moore film about it made it seem fab.

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Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 17:09

I haven't heard of this, would be interested if you could point me to where i could watch it. I have been involved in educational exchanges with scandinavia, most recently hosting visiting Danish teachers, and have been to Finnland twice. Once Helsinki, once much further North in a very remote area.

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2016 17:51

I've never heard of chatting to the kids being considered as you potentially grooming them and hence banned in schools. That's fucking ridiculous if true; building relationships is really important to get the best out of kids.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 17:58

I agree its ridiculous, noblegiraffe I think a lot of things that go on is schools is ridiculous... as you may have gathered by my frequent rants

noblegiraffe · 05/10/2016 18:45

I think you need to be careful to say 'in some schools' because l've never heard of it and I'm a teacher. I deliberately give students little snippets of info (Can't mark your books tonight because I'm watching Bake-Off, followed by a bit of discussion of favourite bakers) because I think it helps students if they are being taught by a human. In all the child protection training I've had there's been nothing about chatting to kids.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 18:52

ok, I will be more precise, but it isn't "some" schools, it is "many"

Verbena37 · 05/10/2016 18:55
This video is 9:28 but I. Not sure if it's the ful length doc or not.
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mummytime · 05/10/2016 19:13

Longlost10 - I don't think its many as its not true of any school I or my cousins have worked in.

Finland is a pretty homogenous culture, has few "foreign" students. I'm not sure how they handle SN.

Admittedly Finland and other Scandinavian countries spend more on education, tend to give more respect to teachers AND spend more on early years. They also pay higher taxes. Its a choice.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 19:47

The behaviour in Finland is completely different

willitbe · 05/10/2016 19:56

mummytime I was trying to support Verbana39 by explaining what is different in some children with ASD. I am sorry if you felt I was insulting you, I was responding to your comment of "For a ruler, there was no need for him to leave class - he could have borrowed one." I was trying to explain why some/many children with ASD cannot do this. When a child starts secondary school it take s a while for teachers to get to know the children, and so it is harder for them to spot the subtle bullying. Yes good communication with the school is vital.

"willitbe - thanks for you damming of my knowledge of ASD - so helpful!" - I was not damming your knowledge of ASD but as you say if YOU know one person with ASD you know one person with ASD. I could fully see what Verbena37 was saying about the ruler as my ds has exactly the same issue. It is not that the ruler/pencil/pencilcase.... are expensive or anything to do with that, it is purely any possession is what he does not like anyone else touching. It is not that it is "precious" to him, it is just that he can't cope with anyone touching any of his possessions. There is no "reason" for it, just a reaction. My son would absolutely not be able to cope with taking extra things in his pencil case in case other people want to borrow them, so your simple solution for your daughter, would not work for my son. Yes the bullying / teasing should have been stopped immediately, but when a child is in a fight/flight reaction, then explaining what has just happened to the teacher is not practical in the amount of time. So instead there is a perceived punishment of detention for being special needs. The fact that it is not really a detention would not necessarily be realised at the time (when in a heightened stress situation).

In this particular situation, the child asked to go look for the ruler in the toilet, and was given a "detention". The fact that it was not a detention was not obvious to the child. Yes children should get detentions for bad behaviour, when it is justified. I am happy for you that for your children "being reassured that there is no punishment outside of school, and that it is not a big thing has helped them cope" has worked for you. It has not for my ds. If my son was told off for something on a Friday, that reassurance would do nothing for the whole weekend, he would still go into school on Monday upset for getting told off (no matter if it was justified or not). When I say that I am talking about the teacher telling all the boys in the class off for messing around, when actually maybe two of the boys might have been sitting and getting on with work fine, my son would feel that telling off personally even when not involved. The old teachers knew this and many adapted their use of generalized language to stop encompassing children who were not involved. But many overworked secondary school teachers do not see this as significant, as it is not life-threatening. They do not see the stress levels of my son all weekend.

I was offended to read "It may be a personal possession, but if the child is unable to borrow a ruler either: a) The child should have far more support to remain in Mainstream (1:1 TA) or should be in a special school" 1:1 TA nor a special school would be either appropriate or necessary for my son. He is high intelligence and copes incredibly well for most things. But he is susceptible to bullying in situations where he is not known, as in the start of secondary school. In this way he does need more support than some of his peers. Your attitude towards others with children with ASD is lacking in the same way in which you accuse me. Just because you know your child with ASD does not mean that you know all children with ASD. Your simple solutions for your daughter would not work at all for my son. This is the problem that faces teachers.

b) the incident of "hiding a ruler" should have instantly been escalated as bullying.". - yes b) recognising it as bullying is what should happen, but in real life it is not always supported by teachers who make comments like "boys will be boys". Please don't presume it is possible for all children with autism to get help from teachers, they are overworked and not able to provide what is necessary for the children who cope most of the time.

It is nice that your daughter is doing so well, but it would be nice for you to show some understanding to parents whose children with ASD, who are struggling with the start of secondary school, and all the issues that this involves.

atomicpanda · 05/10/2016 20:06

Longlost the SN support ranking system that your school utilises (which is in breach of the equality act and the SEND code of practice) will have led to that staff member tackling an ADHD child to the ground. Your school sounds chaotic.

Longlost10 · 05/10/2016 20:22

atom, you misunderstood what I said. There is no official ranking system, it is just that teachers cannot possibly know everybody on their timetable simultaneously, and most will take care that they know the ones with life threatening conditions first. That is all.

Some teachers have so many teachers on their timetable that there is no realistic possibility that they will ever know them all by sight.

will have led to that staff member tackling an ADHD child to the ground no, what lead to the child being tackled to the ground was that he was seconds from permanently disabling another child. And anybody who argues that "procedures should have been followed" are presumably saying its fine for another child's spine to be broken whilst we painstakingly plod through the rule book

Your school sounds chaotic. I am not describing one school, I have been in ten throughout September