ASD in mainstream secondary

[Verbena37]

Hi,
DS yr 7 diagnosed HFASD last winter and has started at secondary two weeks ago.
On a positive note, I think he prefers having lots of new subjects to learn but from a pastoral side of things, I'm just not sure what to expect, and at what level, from staff.

I already met with the SENCo last term so they know his issues and needs yet since he started, and I realise it's only early days, I've been having to email school to point out issues that I would think staff would be more thoughtful about. Stuff like organising his time and not being able to remember noting down homework and not remembering to go to the loo before lessons start etc.

To the staff, I'm pretty sure they think me overprotective but for DS, who has had late night meltdowns for the past two weeks, it's not trivial but things that would enable him to feel less anxious.

Am I hoping for too much? I almost feel apologetic that I have to raise things with them.

as the parent of a child with ASD, the likes of noblegiraffe frighten the living daylights out of me.
how far we still have to go. Sorry that's no help OP.

karlos it is a help.....just knowing it's not just me being arsey with the school and that other SEN parents feel the same way about lack of empathy and support in mainstream schools.

Nobody abused the system

The thing is, kids do abuse the system. They arrange to meet up in the toilets, they wander the corridors, they ask to go to the toilet because they just fancy getting out of the lesson. Until you've taught a class where half a dozen kids have their hands in the air asking to go to the toilet 'because you let X go!' you might not realise just how disruptive it is not to have a blanket ban with allowances at teacher discretion.

I know that you want every teacher at secondary to know him as well and care for him as well as the teacher at primary, but with a dozen teachers and hundreds of kids involved, that's just not possible, especially this early on in the year. Teacher simply don't have the headspace for all that detail to be at the forefront of their mind with every interaction with every child.

That's why systems need to be in place to overcome those limitations. Toilet cards, time out cards and so on are good prompts to teachers to make allowances where they might otherwise not.

Flying your list nearly made me cry! That's awful but you're right in saying that schools seem to want them to be less autistic and fit into the norms rather than accepting who they are and supporting them.

the likes of noblegiraffe frighten the living daylights out of me.

Trust me, it's really not because I don't care. My own DS is currently waiting for an ASD assessment.

Noblegiraffe but it's not as straight forward as that!
Take my DS for example. He won't verbalise about any need that he has (although until he was told he couldn't, he would ask very politely if he needed to go to the loo).

If a member of staff asks if he is ok, he will say he is....even if he isn't.
He doesn't want to get into trouble, upset anyone or have any attention drawn towards him.

Can I ask if any staff in your secondary, other than SEN staff, have autism training? I am genuinely interested to know how much knowledge teachers have, other than what they've read.

Noble that really does surprise me about your DS awaiting assessment.
Surely then you will have some empathy towards these children although from your post, it doesn't look like that way.

When I mentioned how we were allowed to use the loo during lesson time, I wasn't lying. The system worked because from year 9 onwards (we had a middle school system then) the staff there treated us much more like adults. There were very few discipline problems and you could count on one hand how many detentions were given out per term. As students, we were very good at policing each other and everybody just seemed a lot more grown up.

Today however, I see that students' attitudes have changed massively but I'm still sure that detentions are handed out far too often....almost watering down their significance.

That was my experience too Verbena37 Sorry no words of wisdom it was something I frequently had to raise with the SENCO All subject teachers were given one page 'pupil profile' sheets but it didn't sink in with some teachers.

You may care, but you don't understand, noble giraffe. If your child is facing the same issues I do urge you strongly to inform yourself better about the condition. You will be in a much better shape to deal with the problems. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "it's all to hard" ceases to be an option when it's your child.

I do have empathy towards these children, of course I do, but you are expecting a tailored individual and highly personalised approach to your children. Of course you would want and hope for that. What I'm saying is that so are the parents of the 30 other kids with SEN in my classes and the parents of the 200 other kids, some who will have issues but no diagnoses and realistically a highly personalised approach isn't going to happen. I can't do it, and I really care. That's why we have things like toilet cards, time out cards to act as prompts to teachers. That's why any routines you set up at home to anticipate system failures will be needed at some point.

My DS is now in Yr12. The individual teachers have all tried their best over the years but, as Noblegiraffe says, there are real limits to what they can actually do.

I found that DS' form tutor was the best person for contacting teachers and making arrangements etc. The SENCO had potentially hundreds of pupils in their care whereas the form tutor only had a small group.

There tends to be a blanket ban on toilet visits during lessons because of the reasons already mentioned. Exceptions tend to be at the discretion of the teacher, eg SN, or girls with period issues. In the early days they are likely to be quite strict about this but I found that as DS became more known to the teachers, they were more lenient with him as they knew about his ASD and also that he was quiet and well-behaved.

I think the idea of actually writing toilet visits into his timetable is a good one. As a back-up I would email his form tutor again to ask if any other arrangements could be put in place.

The tutor also contacted the teachers about homework and a potential issue with noting it down. Different teachers took different approaches to this. Some had the homework instructions pre-printed on sticky labels for the whole class, which they then stuck in their planners. A couple would help him to finish writing it down if the lesson was about to end. Others would email me with the details about the homework.

As he became more settled, he became much better at finding a system that worked for him.

Tbh dd has TA support in all her lessons and some of it has been worse than useless if I'm frank and in fact at times it would have been preferable for her to run the gauntlet of some of the subject teachers (who in the most part have been very supportive) than be saddled with the ineffectual bums on seats besides her.
Dd has a statement which should ameliorate the difficulties but her needs weren't circulated until a safeguarding fail (by SENCo and one of the useless TAs) which ensured that the HT oversees her support in return for me not making a formal complaint so it is better now at least if only because they know I am trouble and there will be no more chances.
My tip would be to arrange meetings, get agreements on what sort of support would be useful a toilet pass, some sort of homework alert system for home, sessions with keyworker so that he can establish some sort of trusting relationship with them and has someone to confide in. Consider applying for an EHCP yourself so that you can get a formal recognition of his needs and a legal requirement of the school to meet them and make sure you document absolutely everything every meeting or phone call you email afterwards with what you understand to have been agreed. Incidents where he's been refused the toilet, unable to do homework, missed a snack or lunch and the effects at home after a stressful day in school. It is documenting that will get results so don't be led into a false sense of security with informal friendly chats you need written evidence.
Consider contacting his paed or GP and CAMHS to discuss the effects on his health poor support and the increased anxiety as a result is having.
Fundamentally make yourself the biggest PITA possible, sod what he school think of you I'm universally hated by Learning Support (I learned that from a confidentiality breech that led to TA being disciplined) and I don't care in the slightest dd gets the support I demand delivered by the TA's I have agreed and documented to my satisfaction which is 100% more than any other poor child in that school.

Shrugging your shoulders and saying "it's all to hard"

To illustrate, yesterday I had a meeting before school, I taught a full 5 hours of lessons and I had a meeting after school. I gave up my lunchtime to mentor a sixth form lad with ASD, who I don't think would still be in school if it wasn't for my support. I had a long discussion with a girl who is struggling with her mental health. I followed that up with an email to the pastoral head suggesting that I give up some free periods to support her. I emailed a support assistant with some details of catch-up tutoring for a student with ADHD that I had arranged. And I flagged up some fresh self harm wounds I spotted with the CP officer. Then I did a shed load of planning and marking.

So if, in that time I told off your DS for being late to a lesson, it's not because I don't care, it's because I'm only human.

Noble I have no gripes with dd's subject teachers in fact some of them show far more understanding and have a better grasp of inclusion than the SENCo who you would assume would be clued up.
I don't think mainstream secondaries are set up to help a child with ASD succeed. There are so many challenges each and every day because of the vast number of staff and pupils the child comes into contact with who all have their own rules and methods.
Yes there are individual teachers, maybe like yourself, who support, make allowances, are prepared to make adjustments but it only takes one lesson with maybe a relief staff member, a disruptive child, a fire alarm, an enhancement activity or quite frankly a teacher unable or unwilling to be helpful to throw a child's ability to cope out of the window.

Noble I see what you're saying and to a certain extent, yes, SEN funding and resources are limited in most schools and so staff often have to do more of everything (and during their free periods etc) and so some things for some children get missed.

However, my DH as an example in his previous job, worked from 8-8 (plus op tours and exercises) ate lunch at his desk whilst working, had to deal with suicide of staff, stealing, extra marital affairs of staff, soldiers dying on op tour, family break ups, abuse issues, work tribunals etc, at the same time as ensuring aircraft didn't fall out of the sky.....but he did it and nobody was failed by him.

Why should any child in any school be failed?
Why can't staff at staff meetings speak up and say "this way isn't the best way and some of our children aren't getting the support they need". Let's make our policies more effective for every child in our school etc.

Nothing on your above list looks like anything other than what I expect every teacher to be doing. I don't just expect them to be teaching that's for sure. A teacher has an effect on a person. I'm sure your list above is out of the ordinary for many staff members and it's great that you're very astute and follow up where it's needed. But I am sure that many don't.

I'm pretty sure that even for your DH not every single interaction with every single person in his care was 100% perfect all the time. Hell, we don't even manage it with our own kids, do we? And there's far fewer of them, and we know them way better.

No of course not. That was an example of when someone was working very long and stressful hours under many difficult constraints yet still managed to fullfil the outcome.

I guess every school is different but it does rather seem that children with SEN or undiagnosed SEN seem to fall by the wayside quite often because there aren't enough specialist staff in SEN departments.....that isn't the teaching staff's fault obviously but just more understanding of seemingly insignificant issues might go a long way.

Your poor ds, Verbena.

I have a dc with ASD in a mainstream private secondary school and my experience has been totally different (thankfully). The teachers are all aware of the issues and my dc does get allowances for disorganisation and other issues. The staff have focussed on the particular problems my dc faces with learning, particularly when it comes to exams, and I can call the SENCO/tutor at any point. It's terrible that children in the state system are being failed in the way that Verbena's ds and many others are.

verbena if your DH had to deal with suicide of staff then perhaps there were failings in his organisation too.

Things are only going to get worse with more budget cuts I'm afraid. I'm not saying that teachers or school staff deliberately fail students, but don't assume that your DS is going to be perfectly dealt with at every single turn, help his planning for dealing with those situations, come up with routines to help him and see what systems the school can put in place. Yes, ask for an email to go around his teachers reminding them of his needs but also remember cover lessons happen and teachers change so teacher awareness of fine details can't be guaranteed.

Op dd ask her teacher if she can use the toilet and has her pass visible whilst asking. ( it's a blue credit card size laminated pass) Also if a member of staff sees her in the corridor during class and asks where she is going she shows the pass.
The teachers are not supposed to question dc with passes and to always let them go.

My ds's school's SEN policy reads like a joke. If they did what it says it would be the perfect school for all children including ds, however either:

1/ They think they think they are achieving what they say re SEN, in which case they are severely deluded and failing many families because actually they're not. Sadly surely this can be the only option, others being:

2/ They are aware they are not achieving due to the multi reasons already listed: complete lack of awareness from some teachers regarding ASD including from Sencos, with some appearing to even refuse to acknowledge it exists (kids should just do this, understand that etc,) lack of funding, mis-direction of funding, poor use of other resources such as TAs, simple equipment. Not all staff are useless. Some are really clued up and helpful but can be few and far-between and totally overstretched. I get the feeling, due to culture of school, that if these fabulous sorts shout to loudly it will not go well for them (Many parents of children with SEN know this feeling well themselves.} If they are aware, then they are lying in their policies. Why can't they admit that they are failing and do something to remedy it?

3/ I could be completely wrong. DS has no problems and everything in his garden of school life is rosey. If this is the case, why the aforementioned parents evenings, countless negative reports etc etc etc.

FFS HAVING AUTISM CAN BE SHIT ENOUGH. ONCE IT'S ACTUALLY DIAGNOSED WHY, OH WHY, DO THE PROBLEMS REALLY BEGIN?? WE SHOULD NOT BE FAILING THESE, WHAT IS IT? 1%? OF OUR CHILDREN?

One problem with autism is that it manifests itself in so many different ways in children. I've had some autism training and it was only useful in a very general sense. I've taught lots of different children with autism and they've all been different. Some bright, some less academic, some explode, some withdraw into themselves, some actually are quite happy and settled, some suffer major problems and struggle to come to school. Telling a teacher that a student is autistic doesn't tell them much at all.

As a parent of a son with Aspergers, I find it worrying just how different he is treated by different teachers - luckily he only has a few minor issues. Some teachers are really supportive and will be flexible to deal with his problem areas. Yet others just seem to plough on regardless and almost seem to do things deliberately to cause problems for him. What I can't understand is why some teachers can be flexible yet others can't - surely they're all under pressure, working long hours, etc., so I think it still comes down to some who are just being obstructive or unsympathetic just for the sake of it!

badbunny that was certainly true of his primary school senco....who admitted she much about some ASD stuff!! But then, a primary senco doesn't need to have a qualification until they've been in the post for three yrs. sometimes, she would look at me in a very strange way as though I was lying when I described some things DS did.

Noble, that's exactly the problem.....not all staff are as aware of the different ways ASD projects itself in different children. At DS' school though, the SENCo has all his assessment reports etc and said she would pass the info onto staff with his specific needs.

I really like the toilet pass idea if it's just a credit card size and can be discreetly shown and nothing else said.
I might suggest to school if they don't a,ready have it in place.

This thread is really interesting, and makes me feel very lucky with dd's school, even though things aren't perfect.

She's had ongoing issues, cause unknown but she's been referred for ASD assessment (realistically the waiting list in our county is so long she's likely to have left school before reaching the top of it) - and the ed psych while obviously not in a place to diagnose basically said 'lots of aspergers traits'.

Very much like your ds, dd gets very very anxious, and also finds it pretty much impossible to ask for help, particularly when she gets in a state. So for example sensory overload in a music lesson doing percussion would be a typical problem that might occur. The teacher would be happy for her to leave the lesson and work quietly in her office, but dd can't express this at the point when she has the need.

DD's form tutor and head of year are our main contacts. I've found very often that if we can come up with a suggested solution (like your idea of a pass for your DS's toilet issue), then school are only too happy to give it really serious consideration.

Longer term - but I've also found it very helpful to build relationships with sympathetic teachers. So for example one science teacher istruggles with DD's tendency to fidget and look out of the window - talking to the head of science got her moved from the front to the back of the classroom in the seating plan so that she wasn't in direct line of sight, and everyone was happier.

The other thing that (slightly cynically) I think makes a difference, is that if dd gets in too much of a state, we sometimes can't realistically get her to be / stay in school. I don't think it's right, but schools are judged very strongly on attendance, and are IME very keen to make adjustments that will keep a child's %ge attendance up.