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Secondary education

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Independent school visit- DD put off by pupils

127 replies

DrTinkle · 19/09/2015 18:33

We went to a really great school today which will offer DD so many opportunities, we did the tour and she met the teachers and was able to correctly do all the tasks they asked her to have a go at. She is at a state school, is a very high performer and well liked. The school we looked at is academically selective and we are advised DD will get in.

So far so good but she was put off as the pupils doing the tour were very nice but over confident, precocious and, well, a bit odd. One girl was stealth boasting that she was so disappointed to only get an A rather than A* in her worst subject at end of year tests and D found the whole attitude off putting. Their over confidence just felt sort of at odds with our working class ways- does that make sense?

Thought perhaps the precocious ones had been pulled out to impress parents and reassured DD that there will be a more normal spread of people day to day. Have emailed to see if we can visit on a normal day. None of us went to private selective type school, do you think there is there a chance DD just won't fit in?

OP posts:
mummytime · 20/09/2015 08:40

You may well have picked up on the pressure the girls are under.
Its an academically selective school, their parents pay for the priveledge - and some of the comments even "quite normal" parents at private schools must make about state schools are horrific (I know the schools do not make them themselves).
I live in an area where all the young people seem to be highly competitive. So all the private girls feel they have to get As to prove they are really bright, and certainly have to get more than the State school pupils. The State school pupils feel they need A to prove they are as good, and so on.
The pressure may not come from the schools, or even the parents, but from being very competitive with their peers.
And it has definitely got worse over the last 10 or so years.

It's fine, and some thrive on the opportunities. Others would rather be in a less stressful environment.

I would suggest you choose the best school for your daughter which will not necessarily be the best school on paper .

I have watched one girl go to a private selective girls school, at sacrifice from her parents. She has taken advantage of opportunities it has offered, but hasn't even really fitted in. In fact until the last year she hasn't seemed very happy - she is happier because for now the end is in sight, and she is going to go to State sixth form college. Personally I think she might have been happier, and would have done just as well at her local Comprehensive - even though it's not a massively outstanding one.

BabyGanoush · 20/09/2015 08:43

At my DS school all kids get a turn to show prospective parents around, everyone gets allocated a morning or afternoon a year when it's their turn

I like it that they don't select certain confident kids only

It does mean some parents come away not as impressed as they could be

But I actually like how the school puts faith in all its kids, not just parades the more obviously confident ones.

ealingwestmum · 20/09/2015 08:56

My daughter did her Y6 tours last year. These were for parents just entering the education system, with children as young as 2/3 yrs old. She was paired with another girl. When asked 'so you're both obviously going onto the senior school' the one girl said 'I am, but she's not'.

My D was absolutely mortified. The whole parent group then questioned her as to why, what was wrong with the school etc. She apparently blustered her answer along the lines of 'I've been here 7 years, I fancied a change', which I thought was pretty diplomatic (for and 11 year old).

2 sets of parents subsequently complained about her. She did not show the school in good light...allegedly.

The school knew she was considering a move elsewhere, and still did not exclude her from the tours. I think she did the school a favour too...

CrotchetQuaverMinim · 20/09/2015 09:19

Why do you assume she was arrogant and stealth boasting and over-confident?

I was an extremely shy, anxious, underconfident perfectionist. I was also very well-behaved and quiet, and might well have been picked to do a tour, which I would have hated doing. But I would have, and would probably have been a bit awkward about it, whilst coming across as cold and aloof and maybe a bit superior as a result. I was also at a state school.

I would definitely have felt that I'd not worked hard enough if I'd only got an A, when everyone knew I was capable of getting, and expected I'd get, an A, and I might well have said something like that, too, in a way to show that I knew I wasn't anything special, that I hadn't got the A, wasn't perfect, etc. It would have been the complete opposite of what you'd assumed. Kind of like getting the criticism of myself in before anyone else does.

Yes, to people who are used to Bs, it might have seemed arrogant or faux modesty or something, but it really wouldn't have been. When you are in an environment when you perform highly and others do, there is lots of genuine discussion around A or A* or whatever, that has nothing whatsoever to do with boasting. It's just that you are talking about what is relevant to you. Just like in a situation with a music school crowd, who are discussing merits of various grade 8 pieces at a young age, because to them it's exactly what is relevant, and nobody thinks it's any kind of boasting, because that's what matters to them. To anyone listening who isn't part of that environment, it might well sound like stealth boasting, but it doesn't mean it is. And yes, they might sound precocious or arrogant, but that's partly because they're children and haven't learned yet how things sometimes come across. Or sometimes there is an element of arrogance that they haven't learned to tone done. But very often the whole thing is in the mind of the listener. I hate hearing things referred to as "stealth boasting" on MN, when often I think it really is just normal life for the people who are discussing something, and that it's insecurity on the part of a listener who assumes that it must be stealth boasting, done somehow to make them feel worse.

If you don't like the feeling you get from a school, fine. But judge it based on more than one comment like this. And ditch the whole "we're working class and we weren't brought up to boast like that" attitude, because it's nothing to do with class. If you find that the school generally seems to produce a culture of arrogance, then that's a perfectly good reason not to choose it. I wouldn't like it either. But I think it's a characteristic of some schools and not others (yes, even within private schools), and independent from class.

guineapigpie · 20/09/2015 10:35

CrotchetQuaverMinim - I fail to see the relevance of informing people you are showing around a school that you only got an A in French but that was still better than everyone else in your class AND you are doing 3 languages, unlike anyone else in your year... Surely you would not have volunteered that sort of information to complete strangers who wanted to know about your school, not your A versus A* hang ups, and who hadn't even asked you how you did in your end of year tests??? It really doesn't sound like the sort of prattle a shy perfectionist would come up with on a tour of a school. A neurotic narcissist, maybe...

MarshaBrady · 20/09/2015 10:37

It was just one student. Don't dismiss the school because of that. What if it would be really good for your dd?

guineapigpie · 20/09/2015 10:40

What surprises me is that the OP thought it was stealth boasting, when her quote of what the girl said is: "I'm soo rubbish at French, well actually that's not true I just didn't spend any time on it because I was so busy with my other 2 languages and most children only do one. But anyway I only got an A grade but I should've got an A. None of the others got A." That sounds like blatant boasting to me!

Toughasoldboots · 20/09/2015 10:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

redskybynight · 20/09/2015 10:49

I think it's quite possible that the child is so used to be in an academic selective bubble that has no actual concept of the real world.

I went to a school that sounds similar to the one the OP describes. In my defence, one of the reasons that my parents sent me there was that they wanted me to only mix with naice, academic children.

Fast forward to age 16 when I was explaining to a distant relative at a wedding that of course I'd got an A (pre A* era) in GCSE French but then French was so easy that pretty much everyone did didn't they? Because that was the norm at my school and so the only norm I'd known. I later found out that distant relative's daughter had also just done GCSEs and got a D in French. I was totally mortified. It wasn't done with any malice, or to boast, but a genuine lack of awareness of the wider world. So I would agree that some private school and some children may well live in a bubble, which it sounds like OP doesn't want for her DD. But you can't tell on the basis of 1 child.

Blackcloudsbrightsky · 20/09/2015 10:52

I must admit that's why I don't want to send mine to independent schools.

I went to a fee paying secondary and the girls were so stuck up!

AllPizzasGreatAndSmall · 20/09/2015 10:56

No matter how 'good', no school suits every child and at least if you can afford independent then you do have a choice, rather than the 'preference' of applying to state schools.
A friend of my son's went to Magdalen College School at 11 and told his parents he wanted to leave and go to the local state school, academically he was fine but he just didn't feel the other boys were his kind of people, nothing to do with class or wealth.

Ubik1 · 20/09/2015 11:00

I just think it's a bit silly to buy into a particular lifestyle/values via the independent sector but at the same time criticise it.

You are buying privilege for your daughter - so own it. You are not working class, your daughter most definitely is not working class.

Otherwise look at state options and 'keep it real,' Confused if she's so clever, she wil do brilliantly.

Thewoodenspoon · 20/09/2015 11:05

I think you should go to see the school on a normal day. Go to talk to the Head and see how they come across - do they seem more focussed on results than children as individuals.

My daughter won a scholarship to a really good, very academically selective school but we turned it down as she really wasn't keen on the super competitive ethos and just didn't feel comfortable. The Head's talk started with academic achievement .... This was the best decision we've ever made. I have subsequently heard of a number of children leaving as they couldn't cope with such high expectations

The independent school she eventually joined in year 7 is very nurturing and prides itself on producing well rounded children without arrogance. In fact this was expressly mentioned in the Head's open day talk. It does however still have a very high level of expectation for academic achievement with quite a few pupils going to Oxbridge and Russell Group.

I would suggest going back - see it on a normal day - and talk to the Head. Ask to wander on your own if you can or with a pupil and see what break times are like. It usually tells you a lot - do the students say hello, hold open doors or just barge past .....

Go and see a few other schools too - maybe this one is just not for you. Good luck

BeaufortBelle · 20/09/2015 11:07

We visited six indys. DD loved one, liked two, wasn't keen on two and hated one. She applied to three two she liked and one she hadn't been keen on (the lived one wasn't going to work logistically). Her opinions changed on the selection days. The "meh ok" school became the absolute favourite. It was the outsider in the context of academic bar and elitist reputation. She got in. I have never seen her so happy.

My DH went to the local comp. I went to an Indy school. My dh is very clever and highly regarded. He did not have natural social confidence when he started out because of his parents' working class,attitudes and prejudices. He still isn't comfortable "working a room" but I have helped and told him over and over that he is the equal of all those he meets.

Social confidence is important and helps young people succeed. To denigrate it smacks of inverted snobbery and chippiness. I think it does your daughter a massive disservice. Self deprecating humour might cut it if you are one of the teeny few brilliant enough to get to the boardroom in spite of background, it doesn't much help on the journey to get there.

I am so pleased my children stand up straight, smile, offer a hand, greet nicely and can hold measured, knowledgeable conversations about sport, politics, history, events, places they have visited.

CrotchetQuaverMinim · 20/09/2015 12:25

Yes I might have said something out of awkwardness, not even realising that they were hang ups and not things that would come across as good for the school - that people didn't think an A was good enough etc. I might have thought that was the way to impress prospective parents. No, I probably wouldn't have said I was the best in the class. But I would have said things out of awkwardness and well intentioned attempts to do what I thought adults would have been impressed by. And sounded like a dick in the process. I'm not saying this girl was like me, but that people can say things that get very misinterpreted, especially as a teenager. I wouldn't have been boasting, stealth or otherwise, by talking about high grades, since that would have been normal in the environment.

HeighHoghItsBacktoWorkIGo · 20/09/2015 16:51

You just need to look around at all your options, both state and private and decide which schools feel right for your daughter. I think a school cannot be right for your DD if you aren't comfortable with it. Seeing several schools and understanding what the realistic options are will bring into focus what you want.

It could be that the girl showing you around was just an awkward, nervous child, or it could be that her attitude helped you pick up on the ethos of the school which just isn't for you. Whether you need to give this school a second look probably depends on how happy you are with the other options.

Decorhate · 20/09/2015 17:49

I think gut feeling is important. Though it's equally important to not just go by that.

I do get what you mean about worrying that the pupils (and parents) are very different to how you and your dd are. Though perhaps that matters less at secondary level?

I was very put off a local secondary due to the behaviour of pupils on open evening. It definitely relegated it to second choice for me.

Equally, I have just dropped eldest off at uni & from overhearing conversations, worried that her flatmates were over-confident, posh, public school types. But I think they were just over-anxious like all the newbies & mostly state school...

mrstweefromtweesville · 20/09/2015 17:56

If the school was too posh for you and your dd, OP, don't send her. Stay in your working class world (though where you find the working class nowadays, I don't know. there are only lower middle class and subculture where I live, the respectable working class have died out), and allow your dd's life to be shaped by your and her prejudices. There are plenty of people who want to find a route to a more pleasant life, no need to waste opportunities on people who don't value them.

guineapigpie · 20/09/2015 18:08

Apparently either the girl concerned is the only person who thinks an A is not good enough, or the school has an atrocious French teacher, given that nobody in her class got an A*, according to said girl. Is the OP sure she wants to send her dd to a school with such substandard teaching? Grin

guineapigpie · 20/09/2015 18:11

Arrogance is not an essential part of being posh, you know, mrstweet.

Roseformeplease · 20/09/2015 18:13

Why not think about this as a problem with a particular pupil, not the school? As a teacher, I could send you to look round my school with a range of pupils. Some would give you the impression they play football all day, others that they only read 19th century novels, others that they do no work at all. This is more about what they think will impress you (or what they would want in a school).????I imagine that a fairly gauche teenager wanted to give the impression of being brilliant and confident and to "show off" and got it spectacularly wrong.

Millymollymama · 20/09/2015 18:56

Just what I was thinking guineapigpie. How academic is this school? I guess the OPs child will just walk in, as she says, because that is possibly quite easy to do. If you judge a school on just one child, you are mad!

guineapigpie · 20/09/2015 19:12

Being fair to the girl concerned, she is a teenager! Clearly she had not polished and prepared what she was going to say, but just splurged out the first thing that came into her head. I wouldn't judge a school on first impressions of one or two children showing me around, although if they give a good impression rather than a bad one, it definitely helps!

EustaceandHilda · 20/09/2015 19:35

OP - of course there is a chance your DD won't fit in but I am not sure you can tell from this one experience. If everything else about the school sounds right, go back for a second look. If all looks good on paper but she still doesn't feel she would fit in then, it's not the right school.

This is not quite the same but I found it amusing. Some years ago DS was showing some parents around his prep school. As they passed one classroom he (and they) could hear the teacher loudly proclaiming "Don't worry children, you are all going to die." He assumed (correctly as it turned out) this was part of a perfectly legitimate conversation about probability or something. None of the children in the class were harmed in the making of the lesson and none were traumatised. He did have the presence of mind to say to the parents "I don't think Mrs X meant that in a way you should worry about". He did have a grin to himself about what conversation those parents might have been having on the way home.

Obviously this isn't the same as a school which might produce a "type" which you DD might not feel happy with. Just a ludicrous example to say that one experience does not necessarily reflect the whole school and its ethos. Unless it's really put your daughter off, I would join with others in recommending a second visit.

areyoutheregoditsmemargaret · 20/09/2015 19:53

i went to an ultra-prestigious private school, often discussed on here, and gave tours in the sixth form being a teenage dick a slightly disaffected 17-yr-old, I used to give parents a whole load of codswallopy t bollox about 'Don't come here, it's sooo awful, the teachers don't treat us like individuals' nonsense.

In fact, it was (and is) a fabulous school, which in later life I thank my lucky stars to have attended. Anyway, the school's prestige outweighted my idiocy and I doubt I put many parents off, but the point is teenagers from every kind of school are arses