Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

[BertrandRussell]

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

Peer to peer dissemination in this context.
Conversation between BR junior and a friend.
"Why are n't you going to this university day BR Jumior?"
Possible answers
"I'd rather do PE" (subtext - not worth bothering about)
or " BR Mum thinks somebody needs it more than I do" (subtext we are different, more advantaged than you)
or some sort of made up excuse.

Difficult which is why it seems much more positive (IM non-expert O for BR junior to go and sound enthusiastic

Just read the thread . I don't understand why the OP is complaining about her DS being offered a chance to meet people from Universities. It would be stupid of any school to waste resources on a day out for students, who quite frankly will not get to University. The op says their are only 7% high ability pupils in his year , roughly that = about 10 so not many to choose from.

It will also give your DS a chance to meet and discuss ideas with pupils with similar academic ability from the grammar schools....

In one sense BS's DS isn't as advantaged as he might be at another school but I'd say that given his high ability, and with interested, educated and aspirational parents at the helm, he may well actually be at an advantage over the local grammar school kids come university entry.

Interesting that people think his chances of achieving are diminished by him being in a secondary modern school. I don't think that for a second.

Oh be realistic of course his grades will be lower! Probably not by much, but they will be. If he's in classes where the target grades are C or higher, the teachers will rightly not spend that much time covering A* stuff as they'll want to consolidate the C and B stuff and give the handful capable of As a chance.

And with only 7% of the cohort being designated as capable of A+ they'll have to be lumped in with the B/C kids. It's ridiculous to not acknowledge that his learning will be affected by that.

If he was in a class where all the kids were targetted A or A they'd be secure in the B/C topics by Christmas year 10 and spend the next year being drilled in A and A topics.

why do you think universities often make lower offers to those from low achieving schools? Cos we think it's fun?

I'm not sitting here saying that from some sort of ivory tower by the way. My dcs are at a comprehensive and I'm quite comfortable admitting that if they'd gone private they'd almost certainly end up with slightly higher grades in a few subjects - A*s rather than As.

The higher achieving children in the secondary schools near me get a B or B- as the average 8 subject grade. Very few get a hatful of A or A* grades. The occasional one does so OP I hope that child is yours in a few years.

"The higher achieving children in the secondary schools near me get a B or B- as the average 8 subject grade."

Well, surely that's what you'd expect from a secondary school in a selective area.....

Eh? I think you've just gone against your own argument!

Those higher achievers SHOULD be getting better than Bs and if they were at a selective school they would, so clearly the type of school has impacted negatively on their grades.

Or am I totally misunderstanding your point?

I think she's saying that the non selective schools are secondary moderns, so they will have a limited number of children of the higher ability range. They will have some, because sometimes the brightest children don't pass the 11+ and other children take longer to click with academic learning, but when they do get it they romp ahead.

Non selective does not always mean secondary modern

Talkinpeace. you are quite right "non selective schools" in grammar school areas are not always "secondary modern" schools or what the perception of modern is.

However, I don't think that's what you meant....

sunshield
The OP lives in one of the only fully grammar areas in the country.
Everywhere else Grammars are either diluted or non existent.
There are lots of god and gonad selective schools of course.

But she's arguing that her high achieving child WILL get As simply because - at least I think she is. But he's no different to the other high achievers that, for whatever reason didn't make the cut for grammar, and those kids seem to get Bs. Those same high achievers at grammars get As so being at a secondary modern DOES affect grades.

titchy
But is that because
(a) the schools do not have the teaching resources to push the kids to their potential
(b) the kids are actually thick
(c) averages are very misleading and can hide the high performance of the minority of bright pupils

Yes I know, I agree. Just wondering how OP's kid is different despite the teaching etc.

"But he's no different to the other high achievers that, for whatever reason didn't make the cut for grammar, and those kids seem to get Bs" Do they? I don't know- is there any research?

I can only talk about my children's peer groups. And at the risk of opening myself up to howls of outrage again, I can safely say that of the high achievers in my Ds's year, there are only 2 who have the combination of being high attainers, family support and and the assumption of achievement which is the norm in a grammar school or the top set of a comprehensive. So, talking about my ds, there is no reason why he should get lower grades than he would have got at the grammar, unless he disengages. He won't be swept along by the tide to get them-he will have to be a bit more self starting, but he has excellent teaching, lots of support, a comfortable worry free life and ambition. Most of the others in his set are not so lucky. If he doesn't get good grades, it will be, frankly, down to him. If most of the others in his set don't then there will be other factors at work as well.

So Bertrand do you think your DS will do as well without the extra efforts that you have put into monitoring his education plus your regular interventions (as deduced from your MN activity)? Could you step back and trust the school to get your DS (with his own self motivation) to his potential GCSE levels?
BTW the inference from what you are saying is that the SM system works well for fulfilling the potential of MC or well supported DCs.

Bertrand I think you are very very wrong about high ability children doing well in sub optimal environments.

I visit them. All the time. They quite simply don't get the education, grades, advice/support they would elsewhere. Even when their parents are terribly clever and assume they will.

"Even when their parents are terribly clever and assume they will"

If parents assume anything about what happens in a school then they are not terribly clever.

But your posts are all about assumptions Bertrand.

You assume your DS will go to university.
You assume he is not in need to widening participation.
You assume he can do as well in his sec mod provided he works hard.
You assume that your child is one of only three in his position.

Your main assumption seems to be that simply being middle class (as defined by you) provides children with some golden ticket.
That may have been true in the past, but the reality today is far more nuanced. Far more difficult.

Word- my posts are peppered with references to aware, involved parents! In fact, I have specifically said that the main reason I think that ds is likely to do better than most of the other bright children in his set is the fact that he has aware, involved parents and the others don't. One of my repeated objections to the whole selective system is that it is skewed towards children with aware involved parents! One of my main concerns about him going on the university trip is that most of what he would find out we could either tell him or help him find out, but a child whose parents were uninterested in education or actively hostile might never find out without intervention from school..........Assuming is the last thing I'm doing!

Agree summerends. The school sounds enviably good. But is the teaching really excellent throughout the school? How do you judge and how do you know what actually goes on in classes? You can't have observed that much, surely, even as governor. What about levels of disruption - are the kids angelic too? Out of curiosity does the school have a sixth form? If so, do you intend your DS to move to the grammar?

To your credit Bertrand, you're vastly more aware and involved than I could ever be, or would even want to be. Were you this involved when your DD was at the grammar or are you much more interventionist because of the type of school?

I'm a governor of a school, and I certainly don't get to see teaching day-to-day.

Nor could I hazard a guess as to the exact number of DC in a set who have supportive parents .

And anyway, what do supportive parents look like? I suspect the croc wearers of this world might have assumed my Mum was unsupportive but by God, they'd have been wrong on that front!