Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

[BertrandRussell]

Ds is at a secondary modern school. 7% high ability, of which he is one. Letter home today inviting him in a visit to our local (excellent) university because he has been "identified as talented in one or more subjects"

Fantastic thar the school is arranging visits- it has only just started to send any kids to university at all. The school's catchment means that there are very few parents with more than a basic education, and they are pushing hArd to raise the aspirations of the kids- which is fantastic.

Dp and I have 4 degrees between us. Dd is at a Russell group university. Ds will definitely, if he wants to, go to university. It iseems ridiculous of the school to waste a space on this trip on ds. Should I say something? He's not particularly bothered- except that it means a day off school. If he doesn't go, they could give the space to someone that it might actually make a difference to. Surely they should have thought of this? What do I do? And is it depressing that even in a secondary modern school, privilege attracts privilege?

I think you are putting far too much faith in your choice of footwear.

I also think that there is a fine line between being 'involved' and 'aware' in a way which is positive and being 'involved' and 'aware' in a way which...isn't.

"To your credit Bertrand, you're vastly more aware and involved than I could ever be, or would even want to be."

Really? So you don't make sure homework gets done, make sure your children get to school on time, facilitate extra curricular activities and encourage your children to talk about, discuss and find out about stuff that interests them? I bet you do!

Yes I'm interested to know how you've established that the parents of the remaining seven high achievers aren't supportive Bertrand. I really hope it's not been calculated on size of house, area of town house is in, dirt on car, accent etc. because that would be very shallow. Or perhaps (a kinder interpretation) is that your understanding of 'support' is very different from my idea of support, and is vastly more pro-active and interventionist. Perhaps these parents do actually give support, short of any obvious outward sign of interventionism. It is possible I think....

"Agree summerends. The school sounds enviably good. But is the teaching really excellent throughout the school? no, it isn'tHow do you judge and how do you know what actually goes on in classes? i don't. I only know what my ds tells me You can't have observed that much, surely, even as governor. What about levels of disruption - are the kids angelic too? Nope Out of curiosity does the school have a sixth form? If so, do you intend your DS to move to the grammar?" Yes, but offering a limited range of subjects. Not sure what he will do for 6th form yet

Word - I think there's a distinction between being involved and supportive. My mum and dad were extremely supportive but they were not involved to the point of micro managing me, or knowing what sort of maths test I had done recently, or knowing what anyone else in my class was doing apart from possibly my closest friends (I suspect the parents of our little group might have spoken about school to each other occasionally).

I do, however, understand what it's like to be a parent of a child who is a bit different than most of their cohort and it's not completely comfortable (this is something that's only arisen this year really for us). I've had to do a lot of stuff (research mainly) that other people get done for them by the school and as a result I have more understanding of the position BR finds herself in than I did previously.

"Yes I'm interested to know how you've established that the parents of the remaining seven high achievers aren't supportive Bertrand"

You obviously haven't lived in a very small town for a long time.

And it's not necessarily a case of not being supportive- it's also not having the relevant knowledge or experience. You can be incredibly supportive- but if your child has more education than you do by the time he's 12 it's going to be harder to help with GCSE revision. You can be incredibly supportive, but if nobody in your family has ever been to university before you are negociating the unknown.

Ah bertrand I see.

You know the parents of the other kids personally. Sorry, I thought you meant you had that info through being a governor. That's why I was .

And this is the nub of the issue.

A child shouldn't need the help of a parent for GCSE revision. I certainly didn't have the help of my parents for O level revision with the exception of french vocab which my mum able to test me on because there was a book with the list of however many french words it was (1000?) even though she didn't have french o level herself (having had to leave school before O levels)

Nobody in my family had ever been to university before when I went, that was also the case of several of my friends and it really wasn't a problem. Not even slightly. The fact that I and my DH went to university in the dark ages is irrelevant to my kids today because things have changed so very very much.

I think you may be vastly overestimating the relative utility premium you offer your DS compared to his friends' parents.

Not read the whole thread but my children go to schools where virtually everyone goes to uni, most to RG, many to Oxbridge. I still took him along on a campus tour his sister was going on when he was in year 10. He was blown away by it, especially the sports facilities - it delivered a great metaphorical kick up the backside in terms of the effort he puts in now.

Cross post Bertrand. So in answer to yours:

1. No I don't ever make sure homework is done. I never have done. The DC must mostly do it otherwise it would be flagged up on their reports. Occasionally it is or has been but the world hasn't ground to a halt. Nor do I ever look at their books because I wouldn't know what I was looking at and wouldn't want to interfere on that basis. I'd tell them wrong stuff. Also, the boys' writing is alarmingly messy so I'd just nag about that. This way I don't nag, I don't expend pointless energy, I don't fret and they're happy.

1. The school bus collects them from the kitchen door at 8.15am so I don't have to do much except shout the time at 8.10am. Mind you I had to be very aware and supportive and indeed often interventionist with DD3, who took a dangerous amount of time in the bathroom and always kept the bus waiting. But since June 2011 it's all been calm. I did once take them to school in the snow in Jan or Feb 2012 but that was for my benefit rather than theirs.

1. Sometimes the DC need collecting from the extra curriculars that they've chosen to do or bus fares instead but I've never sought out activities for them.

1. We talk but I certainly don't actively engage the DC on academic subjects of interest. We do all eat together but I think our conversation may be a bit low brow generally - I'd find it very false to actively engage them on 'areas of interest'. If they're interested in different things then they're quite capable of seeking out reading on it or watching stuff about it and I think they'd resent it if I tried to plant books on them. I guess if they wanted my help they'd ask and I'd do whatever I could.

I don't really see why this visit could be an issue? Posh* schools do uni visits with their pupils too you know.

*using that word advisedly here

This thread is descending into an alarming level of disingenuousness - I play the competitive neglect game in real life too . "No, honestly, they are positively feral............."

Bertrand no parent needs to help with GCSE revision.

Bertrand you may not like it but what I wrote is absolutely how it is. I don't feel any need whatsoever to be disingenuous either in RL or on here. That is how it is - end of.

Molio- you are doing a shed load more than many parents! And the only things I do that you don't are that I do remind about homework. Because the school often doesn't- getting homework done is a huge issue in most secondary modern schools. And I do-well, I did- seek out extra curricular activities because the school does not run them in some of the things that interest him, so the only way he was going to get any music or drama was out of school.

"The fact that I and my DH went to university in the dark ages is irrelevant to my kids today because things have changed so very very much. "

Interesting. So all the research that shows that one of the main indicators of academic achievement is the level of your parents'--specifically your mother's-education is wrong?

"Bertrand no parent needs to help with GCSE revision."

Well, they may well do if the school is not fully geared up to kids getting As and A*s and your child is capable of those grades.........

You asked about homework, getting DC to school on time, extra curriculars and discussing areas of interest. It actually sounds as if the only place where we're remotely similar is on getting the DC to school. It's very clear indeed that our approach is as different as it could possibly be - but each to their own.

Also, there's a good deal of discussion at the moment as to whether homework is actually useful.

On GCSEs my view would be that it would take far longer for me to 'test' the DC than it would for them to revise a particular subject on their own and that any spare time is better used by them doing something else that they enjoy by way of a break.

Bertrand no parent is more involved than me! I am the epitome of the Tiger Mother .

But really, what can anyone do for GCSEs? My two have just done them. How could I possibly know the curriculum, the mark scheme etc in 10 subjects? All I could do, was offer space to revise and lots of TLC.

No more than my uneducated, working class family members have offered.

The other stuff, extra curriculars, discussions etc I have done. But that is part of my responsibility to my DC in a broader sense. A*s really do need the input of schools IMVHO.

Thread still going? Wow!

Did he enjoy the visit? This has been going so long I'm guessing it's been and gone

Molio - full disclosure, I have been planting books on my kids since they were born. See also TV shows, films, musicals. And a football team. The first song all of my kids could sing was sours are on their way to Wembley. The second was ooh teddy teddy (even though he wasn't playing for us when DC 1 and 2 were little, I felt it was a useful skill to have in an England context. He came back in time for DC 3 to be able to extract full benefit from knowing his song) but none of them EVER cared. :( By that measure I have failed as a parent. Still. They don't support Arsenal so there's that...

But yes. Planting books and planting planting telly and films, sure. Sadly hardly any of it is anything school would look at with anything other than squinty eyes. When DD1 wanted to do her english short story coursework using Asimov as whatever it is they use their chosen short story writer as - inspiration? Prompt? I dunno. I just know they had to choose one and she chose him and it was...considered An Issue until someone intervened and said it would be fine. I only found this out after the fact though. I was involved in neither the choice (apart from having appropriated my dads old Asimov paperbacks long before he died and then not stopping DD1 from reading them) nor the discussion and certainly not the resolution.

I had absolutely no altruistic or educational motives in trying to ensure that the kids and I had some shared interests, it was most definitely all about me. of course it's backfired spectacularly, I now have to pay to take the kids to dr who events I could otherwise attend more cheaply in my own, ditto films, musicals, plays...there was practically a revolution when I didn't get DD2 a kate bush ticket (and the grounds she was too young). And when the next ASOIAF book comes out apparently I have to buy 3 copies. :( The moral of this story is - try and put your kids off liking what you like because otherwise at some point you will have a fight over a book and it won't be pretty.

None of this is relevant to school stuff though. Literally none. I did briefly think that taking Dd1 to see Michael Giacchino give a talk at the RAH might be relevant since they did study film music at GCSE but apparently not his music. Sigh.

Bertrand - my mum left school at 14. I went to cambridge. From a comp. I don't believe that having an educated mum is the only way a kid will succeed. I know plenty of kids whose mums have achieved far less educationally and professionally than me who have done and will do better than my kids. My kids are not an extension of me and I think DH would be a bit annoyed to think that he has absolutely no influence on them as well (even though it's possible his influence is not always positive!)

"It's very clear indeed that our approach is as different as it could possibly be - but each to their own."

Really? It seems to me that the only area we differ is over homework. And if our children were at different schools then I suspect we wouldn't differ about that either. But if it makes you feel better to think of yourself as a hands off "benign neglect" parent then go for it!

"Bertrand - my mum left school at 14. I went to cambridge. From a comp. I don't believe that having an educated mum is the only way a kid will succeed"

Neither do I.