So have your private school fees been worth it?

[jeanne16]

Just that exactly? Both my DCs have been through private London schools all the way through from Reception to 6th Form and although they have both done very well ( eldest now at Cambridge, younger about to go to very good RG), I can't help wondering if it has been worth the money.

I am currently wondering if we could have done things differently. We have spent an enormous amount of money on school fees that could perhaps have gone on other things. Could we have tried harder to get them into decent state schools, particularly at primary level?

Your thoughts?

You have given them a great opportunity and they have done well.
They will have good jobs and who knows what will happen with future governments.
Changing policies over the next 10 years may make a huge difference in who can afford property and it does them good to stand on their own two feet as adults.
They have had the education to be able to do this.
Maybe they could have done as well in a good state school, you'll never know.
Look to the future as you can't change the past.

Has private education been worth it? Well I suppose it depends how DC have turned out in the end.

Just found this article from time magazine time.com/3838524/emotional-intelligence-signs/ which describes 18 behaviors (US spellings) of emotional intelligence "which sets star performers apart from the rest of the pack. The connection is so strong that 90 percent of top performers have high emotional intelligence."

Emotional Intelligence is defined as "something" in all of us that is a bit intangible. It affects how we manage behavior, navigate social complexities, and make personal decisions to achieve positive results.

A top performer is not precisely defined but could be anything from academic, sports, arts, languages or compassion.

A lot of these 18 points many would say private schools excel in through their extra circular activities and opportunities, especially prevalent in boarding schools. Within a school context, the school will be trying to instill these behaviors to achieve academic performance. However, they are likely to help with interview skills and general "soft" skills that employers say they want and more importantly help youngsters make good personal relationships that last.

Having been to church state schools myself I can also identify with a few of these - you appreciate what you have, you give and expect nothing in return, you know how to say no to yourself and others (very catholic that one!).

If you believe this type of research then it could assess how well the chosen private school prepared your DCs in the points compared to the state options you had at the time.

cjm you must be joking. Although I went to a private school myself "emotional intelligence" is certainly not a quality I would associate with the people I know who attended boarding schools -particularly the boys!

Are you for real Fairenuff

Yes, I'm real, why do you ask

Like others have said, how do you judge worth or success?
You describe what many would deem to be successful balanced children so from the outside looking in we can say it seems money well spent.

We have grappled with the idea of public school many times of the years possibly more than most given my wife's position in the state sector.
We are lucky enough to be able to move into catchment for very good state schools which overall are doing a good job with our ds.
The problem we find is that success and attainment seem to be optional, in the sense that the staff don't seem to have time to keep on top of pupils who perhaps only do the minimum (our son!) There doesn't seem to be an ethos of achievement.

Having spoken to family and friends with children in private it seems that hard work, achievement and success hard wired into the children from a young age, there isn't any option to not work at your optimum level and as they have the staff and small class sizes they can follow it through. From this point of view I think our ds would be ideally suited to public school in fact some of his teachers have commented he's a grammar school boy or a public school boy, which is nice they think he cope in that situation but frustrating given we have decided that isn't for us!

How do you define "worth it"? I'm sure that's different for everyone.

We've sent our kids to private school for several reasons, none of which have much to do with their earning potential (although they're coincidental).

We wanted to have complete transparency in their education - hasn't happened. I have very little idea what's going on.

I wanted them to have an elite education in the classical sense of the word. E.g. reading Shakespeare and then see the production at the Globe, Latin, French, their English compositions ruthlessly edited and sent back until it's their best, history brought to life rather than rote memorisation, etc. This has definitely worked. Not sure if this would have happened in the state sector, certainly not in my catchment (special measures).

My 12 year old is a keen Latin and Ancient Greek student and wants to read Classics (I accept this will almost certainly change several times before it's done). I don't know that this would fit most definitions of "worth it", but I doubt this would have happened in the state sector.

Lastly, I sought and found a rather old-fashioned and sheltered school. This has made my job of parenting much easier than it could have been. For this reason alone, I would say it's been worth it.

I think for us it has been worth it. DS and DD have both done well academically, more so than their friends who went to the local high school, they also seem to communicate better and are both doing well in their chosen careers although it is quite early days in that respect. I know that is not a big enough sample to really prove anything though.

I suspect it is more to do with the gap between the local schools and the independents. If you are near London, where there are good state schools, there is maybe less value than if you are somewhere provincial, like we are, with less choice and lower standards

It depends on the children and the schools available. In contrast to you serensareta, our DSs have done much better academically than friends' DCs in private schools.

I'm unsure whether its been worth it, if I was being very honest. Academically my dd did very well from attending private school but most of that came from her own hard work, research and work ethic. The teachers weren't that good. I think some private schools, like the one dd attended which is small, saved money by recruiting teachers that were not quiet qualified or was still doing their PGCHE. The alternative would have been the local comp, albeit a failing one with damming ofstead report. If my dd had adopted the same work ethic and independent learning as she did at private school but at the local comp, I think she would have achieved more a less the same grades. However, she may have had become unhappy and have hard time with unruly kids and distrupive classes. We sometimes think maybe we should have saved the school fees and used it as a deposit in the future for dd to buy a house.

The answer is a yes....

Yes to the boarding and making friends from all over the world.

Yes to allowing her to be intrested in school work.

Yes to almost everything.

She has a big NO for sports...but we as parents say YES to that too

The truth I suspect is that it is very hard to tell in advance whether it is likely to be worth it where you have a reasonably good local state school (and certainly in Central London the state schools have improved a lot over the last 20 years or so). Like Mindgone we know kids who have done better academically in state schools than their private school peers and -somewhat surprisingly- the middle class state school pupils we have known seem to have got less involved in drugs etc than the private school ones. It is possible that there is more social pressure on private school children these days, particularly as the huge increase in private school fees mean that the kids are generally richer than they used to be back in my day. I don't think you can just assume that a child who attends a private school will be happy; indeed I have several friends whose DCs have been unhappy at their private -boarding and day - schools including one who was badly physically assaulted at a famous boarding school. I'm not saying private schools are not desirable if you can afford it (and both DH and I attended one) but just that they are by no means certain to produce the hoped for result and parents still need to keep a close eye on their DCs and not think they can leave it all to the school.

Another factor that we found is that with the private school - there is a definite sense of entitlement with some parents and children (not all by a long shot - we made great friends there also) and I think it is unavoidable.

When a parent is payment more than the average wage in yearly fees, and then donates a lot of money to the school, tied to that is a degree of expectation that their child will do well, be treated well, etc. If that child then gets into trouble, as happened at our school, there is a lot of pressure on the administration to sweep it under the carpet due to the large donation of money. Acts that would have been instant dismissal / require the student to leave at a state school were not dealt with in the same manner. As a consequence, that student did not learn action/consequence or even remorse and repeated those acts which was extremely sad given that it involved physically and emotionally hurting other children.

I'm not saying this is a widespread problem but where there is a lot of money, there can be a lot of expectation of quid pro quo.

LadyCybil you are right to point that private schools have been far too guilty of sweeping things under the carpet and there have been countless cases of drugs, sexual assault and physical abuse that have gone unreported at private schools which would have led to immediate police involvement at state schools. The assault on my friend's DC would have led to an arrest at a state school but in this case nothing happened to the perpetrator. There is also no doubt that virtually all well-known private boys boarding schools have witnessed some form of abuse especially the Catholic ones where the monks seem unable to keep their hands to themselves. (Girls schools seem to involve more “affairs” between pupils and staff). Surprisingly sex abuse and physical assaults are not confined to boarding schools as witnessed by the physical abuse carried out by teachers at one private London boys’ school over a long period of time and the sex abuse scandal at a leading London boys prep school which has only recently come to light but which also apparently went on for decades. In addition to the school itself wanting to avoid publicity/bad PR, private schools are insulated from society and pupils can feel disloyal and weak if they report abuse. The problem is more widespread than people think and DH knows five people (all male) who were sexually assaulted in various degrees at different private schools. I suspect things will only improve if it becomes a criminal offence for school staff not to report an alleged or suspected crime. I’m not saying that state schools are virtuous by comparison –merely that there simply isn’t normally the opportunity for pupils and staff to carry out criminal offences on the premises without being caught and IMO state school pupils and staff are far more likely to report offences. Indeed some state comprehensives are like Fort Knox with CCTV everywhere and most in London have police liaison officers etc.

LadyCybil and neurotic. There has undoubtedly been some terrible things happen at private schools and, even at our provincial school, it seemed at times as though some things were mysteriously overlooked.

Having said that the system sometimes was preferable as it seemed the staff were able to enforce discipline on minor matters more which somehow bolstered the standards generally. Pupils were aware that expulsion was a real possibility without endless channels of appeal which also helped.

One example that springs to my mind was that the private school insisted that their discipline applied outside school so, for example, uniforms on the way to and from school must be smart or covered with a coat, behaviour on buses and in shops nearby was expected to be good and the school followed up any complaints from the public. If the Head heard of any incidents outside school (like shoplifting, etc) he would ask the pupils in to explain and parents were all broadly supportive and on board with this.

Our local state school on the other hand insisted that once their pupils were outside the gates they would have no involvement at all. A friend of ours lived near the school in an unfortunately secluded spot and suffered endless problems with teenagers, ranging from littering, fighting, dealing cigarettes and other things, damage to their property, swearing and aggressive behaviour but got no interest or help from the school at all

Hi Jeannie. An interesting question. I guess you are having a philosophical look back at what if choices made were different.

As a person 7 years into a 14 fees slog, with DD having a similar junior to your DD from reception, we ask similar questions, but for us it comes down to perceived risk, location preferences, and the added value elements of extra curricular activities, as well as numerous other things. Also a grey vision of what constitutes success such as happiness in school, challenging but interesting learning environment etc. Moving forward to senior, a school that can continue to deliver learning in a stimulating environment whilst getting the best results out of children. And working together to set them up well for adulthood.

However, not all private schools are equal, same as not all state schools are equal, and our local catchment schools were not strong, we weren't prepared to move, resulting in choices made.

My question therefore is - apart from the obvious impact on disposable income, do your children feel their education has been worth it?. I know you have a good insight into the education system given your profession, but have they got a view on whether much the same would have been achieved given different options?

I know, not an easy one!

apologies for name spelt incorrectly!

Jeanne16 I suspect you don't live a million miles away from me as you mention Tiffin although to may be far enough away to have been considering different state schools, but I can assure you that certainly in our neck of the woods the state schools at both primary and secondary are far from "grim" these days.

I don't totally understand why you are mulling it over now, like others I think its done now. You make the best choices you can at the time and hope for the best. I can't afford private - not a chance, I won't spending one iota of time worrying about that, I'll be doing the best that I can to make sure DS achieves his potential within the state schools that are available.

Ok so to answer my own question: On balance I think it was probably worth spending the money on the private schools. Both my DCs made use of everything that was on offer to them at their schools in terms of sport, clubs, visiting speakers, extension work etc. One got hugely into rowing which was excellent at the school. Both got excellent GCSEs and A levels and Uni offers. DC1 is leaving Cambridge this year and going into a sought after job having done a 2nd year internship. They are both hard working but also sociable and have not got involved in drugs or other issues.

I suppose I just wonder if this could have all happened at state schools. I think the answer is yes, but we never managed to get places at any of the schools where I would have been confident this would happen. The reality is that state school places are a huge lottery - some people win places at top state schools and they are incredibly lucky, others are left to struggle in tough environments.

Makes sense.

Very best of luck for their futures. They sound lovely and have turned out really well.

"They are both hard working but also sociable and have not got involved in drugs or other issues."

I don't think this is in any way linked to private schools. My sisters boys went to a well known local "rowing" school and had friends who got very into drugs and have very tough starts to their adult-hood. Not a disimilar age to yours as they are 22 and 24 now.

In fact one of them I would say has succeeded despite his private school background. HE struggled to feel better than mediocre at school and didn't really start flourishing unitl he was at Uni (not Oxbridge or RG) when he stumbled across a subject that really inspired him and switched to it.

There really isn't any way of being sure.

Mostly engaged parents will result in fairly engaged children even in just adequate schools. Its the children who don;t have suportive parents or who have chaotic home lives who I think have the really thin end of the wedge.

It doesn't really matter though in your case does it? I mean you didn't feel at the time confident that they would do well in a state school and were fortunate enough to be able to afford to go privately. It was a risk management strategy.

Hi! I'll give you the experiences of my cousins and I. Most of my cousins, and I and my siblings have been privately educated (although I was only half private, then half state).

Out of 10 of us, 8 did degrees. One went to Oxbridge, 3 to RG unis, 1 at a French uni, 1 was an OU degree and two to 'new' universities. I and two others have also taken postgraduate degrees.

The one that went to Oxbridge and the one that went to the French uni have had (and are having) very good careers. I won't go into them because they are, in a minor way, in the public eye and could possibly be identified.

Of the others - we all have 'normal' lives. There's a sound engineer, a software developer, an organic cheese maker, an aspiring writer, a bar manager, a care worker, a librarian, and I work for the NHS.

There's a good chance we would have done similar things anyway. Life isn't only determined by our children's schooling, it's determined by a lot more - motivation, experiences and interests, and sometimes just by luck.

None of us are paying for private schooling for our children (although admittedly not all of us have children yet!).

By the way, the state school I went to (in the heart of Sussex) was a local comp and was hardly 'tough' - LOL at that!

To answer the OP - yes, yes, yes.

If you live in London and there are any tickets left, go and see this new play - on just until 9 may - "A Level Playing Field". I took my DD who is in upper sixth. Set in the music room of a fictitious London public school during exam isolation. Been described, pretty accurately, as "History boys meets the in-betweeners". Superb black comedy.
www.broadwayworld.com/westend/article/BWW-Reviews-A-LEVEL-PLAYING-FIELD-Jermyn-Street-Theatre-April-20-2015-20150422