mixed ability for English - just why?

[BrendaBlackhead]

Dd has just started year 7. English is mixed ability.

She was set for English at primary school and also a small group had extra lessons with the Head.

She now says English is really disappointing and it's her worst lesson by far. The teacher concentrates on the least able pupils and asks the class to do things such as describing the person next to them, or what's in their pencil case. No hint of grammar or studying any books or plays.

I have had this with ds and came up against a brick wall when I spoke to the school. The school's line is that having the most able pupils in the class brings on the weaker ones, and the exam results are not affected. But it isn't all about the grade at the end of year 11!

Today it was English first thing and dd was moaning about how dreadful it was going to be.

How can it be that it's deemed "not on" to give pupils appropriate teaching?

Why are you putting "the majority" in speech marks? When we mean, in fact, the majority? As in the most people, as in an actual and important thing.
And they should stay in my classroom, because I cater for their needs well. And they should stay generally in mixed ability classrooms, because schools have to be organised somehow, and surely that organisation should, indeed must, be geared towards the advancement of the general good, the maximisation of benefit to the majority, and not an (already privileged) minority. I can never feel ashamed of saying this.
Yes, the OP is entirely right to challenge what sounds like poor teaching for her daughter, and I really hope this issue gets sorted for both of them.

I think there is a real problem about English generally in England, and by that I mean the teaching of, the public expectations about the exams in and the curriculum for. I think that's why it's often deemed important to set for maths but not English, and also probably why so few year 6s get level 6 reading/writing.

There is a sense that anyone can do fine if they are willing to share their thoughts and feelings and bang on about What a Reader Might Think, and it's balls. If we need to set and stretch in maths, and offer challenging work, we need to do the same in English.

not an (already privileged) minority.

Oh, I think you've made your position entirely clear, thanks.

For me, a strict utilitarian view, that is doing what is best for the majority, doesn't work here. Each child gets one chance to go through secondary education. So, each child should be treated as an individual with independent value and worth. Each child should be an end. No child should be treated as a means to an end.

You make a good point. steamingnit. Is the lack of setting in English compared to maths a lack of respect for the subject? Or a symptom of the fact that English is inherently subjective and therefore confusing, even for the folks in authority. (Maths must be so much easier to mark and set.). I'm not sure what I think.

Yeah, but the problem is it's not inherently subjective! It's just that most people think it is.

I do think there's a lack of respect for and understanding of the subject, definitely.

But it's not the same as saying, "the answer is 23." Often there are endless possible "right" answers. We all have different favourite books, etc. When I say subjective, I don't mean that there aren't grammar rules, correct spellings, rules for punctuation, or even a general consensus on what an essay that hangs together should sound like. Just that it's not as black and white as lower level maths is. For instance, I feel sure I could find examples of well respected classic books that wouldn't be rated a NC level 5 because they fail to use a semicolon once, etc.

Well yes, I take that on board. But the question of right/wrong answers seems to me a bit confused when people think about English lit.

'Just because there's no right answer doesn't mean there aren't a lot of wrong ones'!

I agree completely!

Brenda

Does the school start to set for English at any point later on? Or will your daughter, like mine, still be in mixed ability classes for GCSEs? If so, I would find a tutor now, unless you are able to support her yourself.

It's worth remembering that many teachers and schools that boast of the success of their mixed ability classes and excellent results at GCSE are actually buoyed up by an unseen layer of private tutoring: around 25% of families nationwide use private tutors.

Interesting that in the government's favoured countries/places for maths education -Shanghai, Singapore and other Pacific rim, where maths results are excellent, there is no setting. All children work in mixed ability classes with some differentiation but not as we know it - no high table and low table. Our very high performing local teaching school (primary) has scrapped setting in maths this year. Just countering the argument that as setting is good in maths it must be good in English. Setting is not necessarily good in maths either.

Interesting that in the government's favoured countries/places for maths education -Shanghai, Singapore and other Pacific rim, where maths results are excellent, there is no setting.

All of those education systems have no truck with "inclusion", so the ability range is instantly narrowed by the absence of children with special needs from the classroom (schools in rural China will be more inclusive, but not in a good way: they simply can't afford to do anything else. And no-one is suggesting that rural China provides a model for much of anything). They are extremely centripetal societies, so any classroom will be socially homogenous, and they have little mainstream support for people who are not native speakers, so there is no equivalent of EAL provision in mainstream schools.

If British classrooms could exclude everyone who has special needs and everyone who is not a native speaker, and operated schools which drew from very small, very homogenous geographic areas, would you still claim they were "mixed ability"?

But we are not talking about rural China, we are talking about Shanghai and Singapore. Maybe their kids with major SEN are elsewhere, but the fact still remains that 90 - 95% of the cohort are taught together! highly successfully. So successfully in fact that the government has just paid for 66 teachers from the most successful schools in the country to go to Shanghai for 2 weeks to shadow their teachers and those same teachers are coming to this country later in the year to spread the expertise.

the fact still remains that 90 - 95% of the cohort are taught together!

www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/15/china-end-discrimination-exclusion-children-disabilities

"Currently, children with disabilities are excluded from mainstream schools unless they can demonstrate the “ability to adapt” to the schools’ physical and learning environment."

There is also, as I pointed out in a previous post, the issue of teaching methods. In Finland, where the maths results are very high, they don't use setting (although they do have separate classrooms for SEN). But their teaching methods, especially for maths are very traditional, with a lot of emphasis on direct instruction, worked examples, and practice. Similar things could be said about Shanghai teaching methods.

Yes Kesstrel. The new buzz word is maths 'mastery'. Tight progression and teaching until mastery seems to be the way things are going. Rumour has it that we will all be teaching from the same text books next year, though there does still appear to be a place for creativity in problem solving. I'm reserving judgement for a while until I've seen it in action.

Quite. You can have "we should look to Finland and China". Or you can have "away with nasty direct instruction, Jo Boaler is our leader". You cannot have both.

their teaching methods, especially for maths are very traditional, with a lot of emphasis on direct instruction, worked examples, and practice. Similar things could be said about Shanghai teaching methods.

This cannot come soon enough for my DC. I am frustrated beyond belief with the maths curriculum. We are looking very seriously at going private next year for year 7 onwards, and the lack of solid maths is a big reason for us as parents.

Of course, I realise that just about any method can work with a great teacher, but the problem is that teachers are only human and some are better than others. Not every year is a great year. Teaching maths in a logical, systematic way would allow us as parents to help our DDs more when they weren't "getting it." At the moment, by the time we realise they don't understand something, the train has moved on. It also leads my DDs to think it doesn't matter if you don't learn something in maths because in a few days they will be onto something completely different that they might prefer. It's not easy to convince a 7 year old that they really will need times tables in life, or a 10 year old that dividing numbers with decimals is a basic skill.

Toomanyhouseguests

You might be interested in this article by a teacher interested in research:
"Reform vs traditional maths: which is better?" websofsubstance.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/conclusive-evidence-on-reform-maths-perhaps/

Thanks Kestrel. The blog post to which you linked matches my experience as a parent. For my two particular children, there simply isn't enough practice. They skim over things; think they know; and what they don't know is never shown up and bottomed out.

But, this is a thread about English! So, apologies Brenda

OP have you had a chance to speak with school yet about the English lessons?

I have just spent too long reading this whole thread and I am frankly appalled that some, well Past, seem to think that it is some failing in your daughter (and by extension you) that she is not enjoying her English lessons and not getting out of them all she could.

Your DD should not have to extend tasks, invent tasks or broaden tasks set by her teacher. The teacher should be appropriately differentiating work to suit the whole ability range and providing extension activities when required.

My DS is more able in English. He is also y7. He would no more extend a specific task set by the teacher in class, than stand on the desk reciting Hamlet's soliloquy! He is not lazy, he is not "wet", he is not unmotivated.

He is 11!

Good luck OP. I hope it improves for your DD.

Yes, in spite of my saying thank you for Past for her suggestions, she ploughed on with the view that dd is some sneering, supercilious eejit.

In truth dd doesn't appear to have a great imagination. Although she likes reading, she chooses historical or detective stuff, and ever since she was tiny has never enjoyed magic, witches, other worlds etc. But - that doesn't make her bad at English. My father hated fiction. He devoured a couple of biographies a week, though, and powered through the Telegraph crypic crossword.

Brenda -

My apologies - I was talking to whoever posted to me that this was all the teacher's fault - which made me really angry.

I don't see these assignments as dull.

I think it is hugely unfortunate that you and your daughter do.

You don't have to see these tasks as 'too easy' - or less than NC L6 ability. You're choosing to see them in that light. Your DC is choosing to presume she can't do much with these tasks (for whatever reason) - and frankly is making English rather a misery for herself. And guess what - the teacher had nothing whatsoever to do with that decision.

I hope that you and your DC will talk with the teacher and this misunderstanding can get cleared up and your DC can go on to really enjoy English as her new secondary school.

sorry that should have been...

enjoy English AT her new secondary school.

...and frankly is making English rather a misery for herself.

Where has the OP said that English lessons are a misery? She says her DD is disappointed in them at present and has clearly stared the reasons why.
Past You have then gone on to make unfair assumptions about an 11year old's character.

You seem content to opine at considerable length interpreting posts to suit your viewpoint, offering 'solutions' that will do one or both of the following:-

1. piss off the teacher for not doing the work as assigned.
2. secure a detention for the child as her actions could be seen as challenging the teacher's authority.

It is of no consequence that you, an adult, do not view "these assignments as dull." Are you so devoid of empathy that you cannot see that an 11 year old a month into secondary, may find the work dull? And crucially is not yet equipped with the confidence or language to remedy thus by extending the task themselves. She us 11 for pity's sake!

I'm sure the OP and her daughter do lots of extension type activities at home. At school she can reasonably expect the work set by a subject specialist to be appropriately differentiated to provide suitable challenge.

The only person blaming anyone is YOU! Your preachiness is insulting. It is also surprising since you have spent the last few years outlining at great length the perceived failings at your own child's primary.

Gosh, I wish you well OP - I hope you raise your concerns with the school and see an improvement. English, taught well, is the most fabulous subject.