mixed ability for English - just why?

[BrendaBlackhead]

Dd has just started year 7. English is mixed ability.

She was set for English at primary school and also a small group had extra lessons with the Head.

She now says English is really disappointing and it's her worst lesson by far. The teacher concentrates on the least able pupils and asks the class to do things such as describing the person next to them, or what's in their pencil case. No hint of grammar or studying any books or plays.

I have had this with ds and came up against a brick wall when I spoke to the school. The school's line is that having the most able pupils in the class brings on the weaker ones, and the exam results are not affected. But it isn't all about the grade at the end of year 11!

Today it was English first thing and dd was moaning about how dreadful it was going to be.

How can it be that it's deemed "not on" to give pupils appropriate teaching?

Past your post is ridiculous. It is not down to an 11 year old to teach themselves! And calling pupils 'wet' is just unpleasant.

I teach in a super selective independent and we still set despite having very a very high ability intake. This is so that all pupils are taught, pushed and achieve at a high level. There is no hiding place which there would be in a mixed ability set. I spent many years teaching English in comps with a mixed ability ethos and although good teachers can make the best of it, is not ideal and as I said previously, very often the highest ability pupils miss out.

And on another note, you are clearly a supportive parent who is keeping a close eye on her child's education which you discuss at home etc. What about those pupils who are massively bright but come from unsupportive homes and do not have a parent offering them strategies to teach themselves because they are outstripping the class? These 'wet' children are being failed by the school aren't they?

I work at a secondary and we don't set in English until after the first half term simply because of the unreliability of KS2 levels. We used to end up making huge changes in sets at half term and it caused all sorts of upset. However the curriculum is both challenging and differentiated carefully. All pupils study the same novel and have just completed four assessments looking at the strands of the new National Curriculum.
I have spent the weekend sorting the sets out and it is very interesting comparing our marks with the levels they came in on. One girl who came in on 3a is in top set having impressed all, scored 15.6 in reading age and 14.4 in spelling amongst other tests. She is just such a perfectionist it slows her down. If we had set on entry she would have spent weeks in set 4/4. Also quite a few who came in on 4a, often boys, have ended in set 1 whereas quite a few 5cs have gone into set 2. The fact is now we know our sets are correct for the moment although we check places every half term.
However OP I think your situation sounds very poor. I would suggest asking to meet the HOD, make sure you have your daughter's exercise book so you can discuss the tasks set and ask about the rationale behind them. Good luck.

Agree re KS2 levels Agg.

"At University all teaching is mixed ability"

What?! The English university entrance process is fantastically selective!

fizzymittens/ duhgldiuhfdsli/ etc...

who has said my suggestion that a pupil should be proactive is unrealistic - can I remind all of you this is a parent complaining that in class the assignment week after week is to write a paragraph - the child is completing said task swiftly and just sitting there. This has been happening for several weeks apparently.

I am not saying that it doesn't take a skilled teacher to start the process of thinking about writing styles/ genres critically nor am I saying that a teacher needs to structure lessons and assign tasks that can challenge all ability levels

but...

I am saying that an assignment to write a descriptive passage is not beneath BrendaBlackhead's DC & shouldn't be perceived as 'boring'.

Maybe it's just me - but I think it is concerning that an allegedly highly able child (just going on Brenda's word) can't do more with such an assignment.

I take the point that you all clearly feel the teacher needs to notice Brenda's DC has been finishing early and come over a suggest another task - but I'd like to argue that in this situation learning to be proactive can really help:

Trying something additional yourself

Raising your hand and asking the teacher what next

Asking someone beside you who's finished the work but seems to be carrying on with something what they're doing now

these all strike me as reasonable approaches to this situation.

Again, I seriously doubt that the English teacher is never going to teach grammar or literary criticism - and I suspect that there will be several books that the class will read together as a whole and ye olde Shakespeare play will probably be thrown into the mix.

I totally understand Brenda's concern - I'd be concerned too, especially if this was my child's favourite subject and she's now disappointed/ bored with the class. But 'disappointment/ boredom' is also up to you - if you want to do more - try doing more/ try asking what can I do next/

It's the attitude I find disappointing.

There was a time (admittedly the 19th century) when self-educating was seen as a virtue - and libraries were founded to help 'ordinary workers' in Britain to access knowledge, read for pleasure, read for interest. We've rather lost that knack through interest to be self-motivated enough to do more ourselves I fear.

Of course the teacher is going to have to guide Brenda's DC through her first Shakespeare play - iambic pentameter, comedies vs. tragedies, historic setting (both the plays & writing for Elizabethan court) etc...

But Brenda's DC could explore modern twists of Romeo & Juliet (West Side Story/ Shakespeare in Love/ Lion King II/ Dirty Dancing/ etc... www.swide.com/art-culture/movies/best-top-10-romeo-and-juliet-movie-adaptations-ever/2013/07/22) and consider what makes this such a brilliant/ timeless story. She may even consider going and seeing a live performance herself (with a bit of help from Brenda of course) or try to persuade the teacher to organise a field trip to Stratford/ The Globe/ etc....

-------

In terms of University admittance it's never solely those pupils achieving AAA or As* at A-Levels - yes for the elite I'm sure - but as we all know you can also go to Wolverhampton, Worcester, Aberystwyth, Bucks New University, London Met or Loughborough - and it can be as much about being an elite athlete, a skilled musician, a talented actor, a keen young farmer, as anything else. FE Colleges also offer ACCESS Courses - for those who have failed to perform well at A-Level (for whatever reason) or indeed never sat A-Levels. And of course there's Open University.

By the way Physics at Aberystwyth is B(Maths) /B(Physics)/ C (English or Welsh) at A-Level & Childhood studies requires only a Grade C in GCSE English/ Welsh.

I think some of you are a bit out of touch. Many Universities are struggling to fill places and so radically lower the published UCAS tariff for entry when it comes to it. There are just over 90 'Universities' + the Open University of course (which anyone regardless of A-Level grades can take courses from - more info here: www.open.ac.uk/choose/change/how-does-ou-study-work).

I can also assure you that out of 30 arts undergraduates/ 100 science undergraduates we're lucky if one or two go on to be an academic in the field. Many go on to do something related - so study science at University and then work in research & development for a company or go on teach. Sometimes the higher A-Level threshold for entry is about investment in training - so for medical or legal degrees - it's about ensuring that the vast majority go on to practice law or medicine (if not study further to specialise or explore research interests).

I can't quite see where I said dd was just sitting there, indeed sitting there superciliously.

She is just disappointed that the bar is set very low.

Suggesting that dd raises her hand to ask the teacher "what next" or asks the person sitting next to her how they're getting on - well, that's a surefire recipe for getting branded as a creepy nutcase - by the teacher as well as the pupils.

And as I said, of course a particularly motivated pupil could stage their own Shakespeare festival in their back garden in their own time , but it does seem reasonable that when in formal school they are led onward. Furthermore, as fizzemittens noted, not everyone has a Tiger Mother facilitating English extension activities at home.

And, on the matter of degree students being mixed ability, well, by that time they have rather self-sorted according to institution.

Brenda:

genuinely - if the issue is boredom at the writing task - then please encourage your daughter to twist the assignment to make it more interesting.

It isn't creepy to say I've finished the task Mr/Ms X - what would you like me to work on next? If it's uncomfortable - raise it after class on your own.

What I'm saying though is that writing - if English is your child's interest - is a muscle that can be stretched in a myriad of ways:

vocabulary
style
grammar devices
etc...

And it isn't being a 'tiger mother' to suggest that a gentle push to think about the assignment a bit differently - write about the contents of the pencil case - but then suggest that each item can fit together to be a robot or when you lift them out there's a portal to another dimension or whatever...

Write a paragraph on X - isn't 3-5 sentences and timed.

Sitting there bored in class isn't necessary.

Most senior schools spend a lot of time in KS2 on developing 'independent learners' - and Brenda here's your DC's chance. Encourage her to find out what more she can be doing with the task.

Are you really sure that your child's work is the very best in the school?

If other children are spending 3 days on this - and you've got to presume that at least a couple kids are as bright as your DC - then has your DC missed something in the assignment?

Personally when DD1 comes home and said she finished a report in class and doesn't need to work on it over the weekend - alarm bells are ringing. I know that it will be overly brief. Full of spelling errors & monosyllabic vocabulary. Probably just off Wikipedia - with no real effort to look for more information - dare I suggest go to the school library and see what they have on the topic. Dread to think through whether it's stream of consciousness or structured and personally feel had she spent a bit more timing on planning and organisation and finished it at home it would have been a better piece of work.

but hey - I'm a tiger Mum.

It is not for a child to complicate the task at hand because the task is too easy.

In fact I would go so far as to say that encouraging DC to complicate simple tasks is a very bad idea.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last post, TheWordFactory.

The last thing I want is for my DC to have to reinvent the task set by teachers in order to stave off boredom.

Oh dear....

Being inventive - coming up with solutions - is an important skill.

I'm afraid - I see it differently - sitting there like a dollop - not asking yourself, a friend or the teacher what more can be done - but waiting for someone to tell you what to do is creepy.

Would you really want to employ someone that doesn't get up to help a customer at the counter unless you specifically instruct them do so?

Those are important skills, but not the ones that DC are supposed to be acquiring in English class.

So if children are supposed to self-educate without the help of the teacher, wouldn't it save quite a lot of money to sack the teachers and replace them with classroom supervisors?

I don't think I said anywhere that a child should self-educate - what I said is that education is a two-way street - and you don't sit there passively receiving wisdom - you may have to get up and find a book to learn more, or practice to get better at calculation skills or receipting lines from Shakespeare. I also believe that any task is open ended - you can put more into it - if you want to....

What I would say is there are points when tasks are easy - and maybe it's a bit Arts and Crafts movement to take pride and pleasure in your work and to make each piece of work a little treasure - but you can make the most of any learning opportunity....

DD1, for example, is in her mixed ability Y7 class having achieved NC L6 on KS2 SATs (thank you Mathsfactor!) The class is organised with a little plenary where the teacher explains what they're doing and maybe a calculation skill. Maybe a game or activity to reinforce the idea and then children are set to work - all given the same worksheet and a challenge problem. Like Brenda's DC the teacher is frequently busy helping the less able pupils do the work.

DD1 has finished this maths worksheet every time in class, including the 'challenge' problem. She's done just as Brenda's DC has done - 'Maths is a bit of a disappointment Mum' - 'I'm a bit bored'.

So I've suggested she does a proof of every problem - it's good method anyway - she now tries to work the problems she's been set backwards and it has caught a few howlers.

She has not been able to check all her work in the time and I've not insisted she complete that - but it's all there for the teacher to see.

I've told her she needs to speak to the teacher - because she actually would like homework in maths or at least access to My Maths (where she can carry on with Level 6 lessons independently) - she's agreed the best day is when it's the last class and she can stay after and quietly ask a question without everybody there or having to rush to another class.

I'm leaving it to her to pursue this because the school bumph (and this is an ordinary state comprehensive) is that they want to make 'independent' learners of the children and that they are encouraged to ask questions about work & further challenge.

I put it to you that Brenda's DC could do more with her paragraph assignment - it's not upsetting the apple cart - I seriously doubt it will upset the teacher - and she may just benefit.

It's like a child in gymnastics. One kid will sit there by the side moping until it's their turn on the bars or beam whilst another will go off to the side and practice hand stands, back bends, etc.... improving further all the while.

I prefer that child off to the side.

That child off to the side will get on the teacher's nerves and be told to come and sit down like all the rest.

past sorry but what you're describing is a poor education for a high ability student.

It's not what I want for my DC. Fortunately their schools provide something far superior.

The OP is not in that position. She is right to be concerned.

Look I get the 'being concerned' & Brenda I completely support your frustration and your DC's. If doing more quietly herself isn't on and speaking up in class isn't going to happen - all I can suggest is you make an appointment to discuss this with the teacher (unless you're going to have a parent/ teacher meeting shortly).

In the meantime Brenda: here are some links to free websites with additional resources/ ideas for English (as this is your DC's interest) - I know doing more at home isn't ideal - but for right now perhaps doing more at home might sustain your DC's interest in the subject & help her improve:

Channel 4's Homework High: www.channel4learning.com/apps/homeworkhigh/english/index.jsp

BBC Bitesize KS3 English: www.bbc.co.uk/education/subjects/z3kw2hv

more ideas here: www.webanywhere.co.uk/education/teaching-resources/secondary/literacy

Hertfordshire Grid For Learning KS3 resources: www.thegrid.org.uk/learning/english/ks3-4-5/ks3/index.shtml

Bishop Thomas Grant School KS3 Literacy resources: www.btg.ac/pages/websites-for-ks3-literacy-

I totally agree this isn't ideal - but perhaps some of this can continue her progress/ interest in English until things improve in her present English class or streaming/ setting comes in in future years of KS3 at her senior school.

I know we have very different view on education - but regardless I sincerely hope that it all works out well for you & your DC.

Signing off with apologies this became so heated a discussion

PSBD

Thank you, PasSellByDate - I know you're trying to help.

I shall be raising this issue at parents' evening (December).

I actually spoke to dd about your comments and how she could make more of the tasks. Dd said that would be difficult as in the latest task (looking at a persuasive newspaper article about selling burgers outside schools) they were specifically told to write only one word .

I'll look at those links but to be a tiger mother you need a tiger cub!

I would raise it sooner than December. You do NOT want your dd turned off any further. Email English teacher/head of year today.

Brenda:

I agree with areyouthere - I think you need to e-mail the school's general enquiry e-mail address & ask them to pass on your request for a meeting with the English teacher.

A 'one word' assignment was also given to my DD1 (a mediocre NC L5 at English/ sat L6 paper but didn't pass it. English is not her cup of tea by any means.) Anyway her task last week was about finding a word that best sums up an article about a major scientific discovery.

DD1 - wrote out a list of various words. Raised her hand and asked if she could use one of the Thesauruses at the back (earning a merit point) - and found a few more words.

Many students opted for 'AMAZING' or 'MIRACULOUS' - very Brummy.

She worked through a number of possibilities and plumped for AUDACIOUS. (she said she could hear people chattering about their words - so knew what a lot of people were using).

That's a brilliant word said the teacher - can you explain what it means and why you chose it. She explained that she had chosen 'risky' - because someone had said that it was a 'daring' scientific advance in the article. Then using the Thesaurus she found audacious & checked the meaning in a dictionary.

I got the impression from what DD1 said that the teacher explained to the class that working like this - working through some ideas, chasing more information, finding out if it's the correct use of the term and then having done your research opting for a particular word choice was what she was looking for. The point was not to be satisfied with the first idea that comes to mind - but to really work through all the possibilities; whether it's a better word to use in a sentence/ poem or what examples to select to emphasise the point you want to make in an essay about the portrayal of ordinary women's lives in 19th century fiction.

There were the usual groans from those students who just wrote one word and had sat and chattered - but DD1 was beaming and thrilled with her merit point.

I don't know what your DD's assignment was Brenda or what the Learning Outcome (in teacher speak) was meant to be - and the assignment may not have gone at all like my DDs - but I think you need to sort this out because it does sound like either your DD is missing the point and doesn't 'get' what is being asked of her (which the teacher needs to be made aware of) - or your DD is absolutely in the wrong group (which can just be fluke - a random Level 6 ability child in a class of ? whatever Level pupils who need 30 minutes to think of one word to describe something).

Past, I think it is great that your dd can take a basic task and elaborate it.

DD has a slightly different problem (not in her English class, which seems exceptionally well taught), but in some other subjects.

She really, really struggles with writing - the physical process of it, and also the mental process of getting things down on paper. At end KS1, she was levelled 3 for everything but writing, where she was level 1/2 borderline, and I'd say that difference hasn't really gone away.

So in the situations you're describing, she's not going to finish her work, and then look for other more challenging options, because it will take her all the class time to finish the original task - even though it requires very little or no thought on her part relating to the subject, and she could complete a far more exacting task in exactly the same length of time.

Well, the classes are not set, so yes, dd has L6 English for what it's worth but there are others in the class who struggle with basic literacy. From what dd says I don't think being a bright spark curries much favour (the people who got commendations in the newspaper task had written "picture"). These tasks are fine if the class is by and large the same level so that ideas can bounce around, but it is dispiriting if you are expected to plough a lone furrow of self-motivation.

Takver:

Not sure if this is a learning difficulty (some dyslexics are very slow writers but have developed coping mechanisms that make the obvious problems reversed letters/ dancing letters when reading rather hidden)....

but ....

I would talk to the SENCo - because whether this is a learning or physical disability your child may be entitled to extra time on testing (including GCSE/ A-LEVELS).

She may even be entitled to submit typed work in lieu of written work.

I totally get that for some children - getting work done in the class is a struggle and I know that they end up taking it home & finishing and it can seem very unfair. As I said - if there is a learning difficulty or a physical impediment - getting it identified will mean your child may be entitled to do work on a tablet/ computer in class & to take exams with extended time/ possibly also using a computer. Thus levelling the playing field.

PastSellBy - I can't remember what it's called, but the Ed Psych did have a name for it. But, really, she doesn't need extra time or a keyboard if set work at the correct level, IYSWIM - she can write well enough (she always gets excellent results in tests in the standard time allowed). But she can't do what I'd have done at her age, which is tear through the trivial work and then mess around ask for more challenging tasks.

Brenda:

I get that from your perspective a child sitting there reading an article (which takes time - let's say 5 minutes) and then after another 20/30 minutes just comes up with 'picture' can seem poor effort. But context is everything. For that child - spelling picture correctly (possibly working in class to find that out) may have been a big achievement. For that child - in a home with parents out working and nobody really talking to them - what was trying to be articulated there may be that the picture accompanying the hamburger stand article was amazing: showing enterprising kids having a good time?

...and maybe that word led to the longest conversation about something they had read.

They're entitled to be there learning to. I don't think that child was taking the proverbial or not trying

what I'm wondering is - is your DD getting that she could try harder or do more.

I really do suspect she's rather missing the point on these assignments - maybe too used to KS2 SATs practice papers and timed answers - and can't deal with 30 minutes to dwell on choosing a single word to sum up an entire passage. It's not an easy task actually.

She could have explored words for hamburger:

junk food (two words won't work)

calorific (works but doesn't sum up this idea of students selling burgers outside of school)

?Enterprising

?Could you create a new word? Burgerventure?

Could you play with Burgermeisters (it's a german word - but it does imply hamburger & being King of them).

There's a lot to play with there and again at high ability it is deeply worrying that your DD doesn't see that. By the way this is the type of skill Headline writers play with - and it's what makes headlines like these so effective: VICTORY headline from WW2 (here)

I'm sure she can do it - maybe it's being at a new school - ?not many friends - I don't know - but start by talking to the teacher - these tasks aren't unusual for Year 7 - DD1 & her friends are doing similar at 5 different secondaries from grammar to comprehensives. So I think the problem includes your DDs approach/ attitude.

got to leave Brenda - but hang in there - I'm sure there's a solution - but whatever else it can't just come from the teacher - your DD has to adapt and change to her new environment/ new expectations as well. And to be fair to the teacher: She shouldn't need discussion in class to help her see that or the teacher to point out what to do - in the top 2% in the nation - working clearly at KS4 ability - she should be able to get on with a task and take it in really surprising directions.

I had exactly the same problem when I went into mixed ability English at comp- it was exceptionally boring, I finished everything early and didn't have the nouse or the cheek to initiate new tasks, that wouldn't have been encouraged, we just had to sit there quietly. The books my teacher chose were very babyish as well, and I just lost motivation and my grades went down to 2 or 3 for effort!

I think it is a bit daft to suggest the OP's child be a self-starter and quite sad that the idea of enrichment should be herself enriching herself or her parents setting her work in school time. This is not teaching, it is HE taking place in school time and really a very sad state of affairs. Of course reading at home, wordplay, puzzles, games out of school are fun- but she's in school and something educational should be happening there.

There is nothing deeply worrying about your dd's lack of engagement at all, my boredom only lasted as long as this rubbish teaching, so three years til we moved onto the set texts for exams and it all got a bit more interesting.