mixed ability for English - just why?

[BrendaBlackhead]

Dd has just started year 7. English is mixed ability.

She was set for English at primary school and also a small group had extra lessons with the Head.

She now says English is really disappointing and it's her worst lesson by far. The teacher concentrates on the least able pupils and asks the class to do things such as describing the person next to them, or what's in their pencil case. No hint of grammar or studying any books or plays.

I have had this with ds and came up against a brick wall when I spoke to the school. The school's line is that having the most able pupils in the class brings on the weaker ones, and the exam results are not affected. But it isn't all about the grade at the end of year 11!

Today it was English first thing and dd was moaning about how dreadful it was going to be.

How can it be that it's deemed "not on" to give pupils appropriate teaching?

@NancyJones, my view is that primary-secondary transition is a national disaster story in terms of efficiency.

I don't believe this is especially new though e.g. I found a quote from some HT's organization from a couple of decades ago where they admitted there was a problem, but then questioned whether it mattered.

Yes, it's a massive issue. Not all the fault of secondary schools though. They are taking kids from a host of primaries all doing things differently. The 'very bright' cohort from one feeder may be nowhere near the 'very bright' cohort from another.

There is also the problem of inflated SATS grades. Children turning up with supposed L5s when all that means is that they were obsessively crammed to pass a SATS paper rather than them being a genuine, solid L5. Of course some children really are and therein lies the biggest problem for secondary schools.

There is also the doctrine which says 'I am teaching Y7 therefore I will teach the Y7 curriculum to all. They can do Y8 stuff in Y8'. You see this with some teachers at primary too. It's crap but it exists.

It seems like the schools should be spending the first few weeks assessing the children then.

I think op has a point. We had same in y7. As they teach 3 English lessons a week I think there is capacity to offer some setting. My dd school sets for maths and languages so not sure why not English. I decided to take her to plays myself.

Same thing at our school for all subjects. I was quite displeased when DD started and really felt it was going to be a waste of year for her as her levels at the end of primary were high. It got better through the year though. I discussed it with her teachers just after Christmas time and they acknowledged she needed challenging more. They stuck to it and she did came home saying that she was given more work, and that her teachers were spending time with her when she was finished with a piece of work before the rest of the class. She is now in Y10 and she has progressed regularly over the years as expected after leaving Y6.

My DS has now started at the same school, he too is very advanced, but I am not concerned that he will be held back as a result of not being streamed in Y7.

@NancyJones "some children really are [at their alleged end-primary level - Ed.] and therein lies the biggest problem for secondary schools."

At primary DD was "re-levelled" reasonably quickly every year. My Y5 teacher friend from another school always grumbles about this or that problem with the previous teacher's end-year levels.

They obviously see the children most of the week, but there are only so many Literacy and Numeracy slots in the timetable. Primary with higher pupil-teacher ratios appear to be much quicker at their re-assessments than secondary.

Ofsted appear to be interested in this now.

DD's school didn't set in English until they reached GCSE. When I asked the Headmaster about this he said that it was because girls tended to be more advanced in English than boys. If he setted in Y7 then the top sets would be overwhelmingly female and if the boys saw this then it would damage their self-esteem. boo hoo.
The girls had to wait for the boys to mature and catch up.

Did they set in maths senua?

Primary with higher pupil-teacher ratios appear to be much quicker at their re-assessments than secondary.

They may have (slightly) more in a class, but it's usually just the one, whereas the secondary teachers will have lots of classes at various stages.

There is a lot of evidence that Setting actually causes all pupils to under perform.

I personally think mixed ability is often better, but if teachers aren't committed to and don't know how to teach mixed ability then setting is probably better.

Yes, they did setting for Maths and Science (that, traditionally, boys do better in than girls. The girls coped, cos they are more mature). It makes perfect sense.

What is the evidence that setting causes all pupils to underperfrom?

Surely that must depend on the age and the stage - and how it's done. e.g. I can't see a very mixed ability GCSE maths class working too well.

Secondary schools seem so suspicious of Year 6 SATs results that I sometimes wonder if there's any point in the kids taking them. DS2's Maths teacher at the beginning of year 7, smiled patronisingly at him when he said he had Level 6 Maths, graded him down and then a term later marked him up to where he had been and made a big deal at parents evening about what great progress he'd made in her class.

OP, your DD's school may be good in many respects but it is failing her at the moment. They need to know this and adapt their rather rigid system. Don't let it go until they do!

Oh, just realised I've posted this in the wrong thread, I was thinking original poster was the mum with the DD struggling because of Streaming situation where she was in top Maths group because she was good at English. Sorry! Yes, still a problem but probably not such a damaging one. I would find out when and if they do plan to set for English. I think my DCs were set from Year 8.

senua, there is some evidence, but it's tenuous and open to picking apart.

Brenda:

Our school also is big on totally undifferentiated Year 7 with gradually increasing differntiation from Year 8 to fully differentatiated into sets in Year 9.

The school see it as a process and also see a responsiblity to parents of less able pupils to signal that secondary is a fresh start and to encourage them to take up the challenge of progressively more demanding work.

It's a noble experiment - and there clealry is a huge debate going on about the best way forward and what is truly meant by 'mixed ability teaching' (e.g. www.strath.ac.uk/media/faculties/hass/scilt/slr/issues/18/18_bremner.pdf)

I think the issue is that your DC isn't feeling particularly challenged by the tasks - so perhaps the trick here is to encourage her to make the tasks more interesting. If it's taking the class two hours to write a single paragraph - why not see how many different ways you can write this paragraph. Maybe even look about for a dictionary or a thesaurus.

It will also get her noticed - which is no bad thing.

PastSellByDate, what about their responsibility to the more able children to hit the ground running and keep them progressing at the sand pace they have been. It's almost like they're saying, ' they've done really well and they'll do well at GCSE so they can afford to coast for a while to enable better attainment for those behind them academically.' Well bollocks to that is my opinion both as a parent and a teacher.

Do they set later on in the school? DD1's secondary didn't set until year 10 (all classes except maths,PE and tech were in form classes until year 10) but they get 70-80% A*-A at GCSE.

When DF and I had to do something dull in English at secondary, we would do the task really badly and then write lengthy pieces of free verse about the cruel crushing of our creativity by The (Wo)Man. Tell your dd to get the task done and then do something interesting that doesn't disrupt the class.

I sympathise - I know my DS would do the bare minimum given such a task. Very fortunately for him this isn't his experience at school and he loves English - because for him the learning experience is challenging /stimulating and therefore enjoyable. I have a Dnephew who is in a school where GCSE English is taught in semi mixed ability (anyone who is likely to achieve a C or above). My DN is on target for an A* but finds the subject a total waste of time - I.e it's a very dull learning experience for him. IMO just because the results are better doesn't mean it's a good way to teach all the DC.

What is the evidence that setting causes all pupils to underperfrom?

Most educational research is small samples, unblinded, with no control groups and no randomisation. That's inevitable: it's impossible to, for example, blind the teachers and the pupils as to whether a particular strategy or intervention is in use. But just because it's not possible to do education research that isn't (methodologically) weaker than a weak thing doesn't get away from the problem that (methodologically) it's weaker than a weak thing. Most of the studies on mixed ability versus setting are as good as could be done, but still for practical purposes no better than a few random numbers whacked through ANOVA.

As a teacher I would argue that there is a case for mixed ability teaching in certain subjects but English would not be one of them. Mixed ability teaching just does not work in this subject and very often teachers teach to the middle and the weakest and the strongest get ignored. Sadly in state schools resources are not targeted at the high achievers and they end up bored and lacking in motivation very quickly. Setting and proper targeted teaching is where more academic schools have the edge.

NancyJones:

I hear you - and don't get me wrong - I'm rather concerned about no maths homework at the moment for DD1 (also new Y7) becuase the teacher assumes it isn't possible to finish the worksheet & challenge problem in class.

No it isn't good for Brenda's or your child to sit there doing nothing - but oddly enough I think education is at least a two-way relationship - teacher & pupil.

So, feeding back, either the pupil themselves or via you through your parent comments in your DC's planner that DC is finding the class a bit slow and is completing worksheets entirely in class and therefore has no homework, etc.... expressing concern at parent/ tutor or parent/ teacher meetings...is your way of putting the pressure on the school to also differentiate for your higher ability child.

With English - which was the example. It is rather 'wet' to just sit there after finishing a paragraph - proverbially staring at the wall. A more proactive approach with the assignment describe the classmate beside you - is to play a game with the task:

version 1: straightforward description
version 2: description with flowery language
version 3: description as rhyming couplets
version 4: science fiction style description
version 5: mystery style description
version 6: use a thesaurus & re-write version 1 with more elaborate descriptive words.
version 7: write it in the style of a favourite author
version 8: write it in terms of the person next to you's inner thoughts
version 9: Romantic/ gothic description

etc....

And that was the point I was trying to make.

At present, as I said, DD1 is finding worksheets in maths class just review stuff she knows - so she came home & complained and I said - right how can you make that more challenging. No mistakes & less time? So DD1 is now trying to complete the worksheet in

At University all teaching is mixed ability

Yeah, over the wide and challenging range of "people with AAA at A Level" and "people with AAB at A Level".

By the same argument, presumably, super-selective grammar schools are mixed ability, as few set.

past I completely disagree with you.

Calling bright 11 year olds wet because they can't essentially educate themselves quietly whilst everyone else is taught is ludicrous.

Schools that set rigorously and selective schools provide a collegiate environment of appropriate like ability peers.

Bright pupils need to be properly challenged.

And frankly it is absurd to call university education mixed ability. Most of the very best are highly selective.